Now it’s our turn to shine the light on Ironic Johnny;
IMPORTANT UPDATE AND CALL FOR ACTION!
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Sen. John Thune will be at the Sioux Falls Chamber of Commerce tomorrow at 2:00pm to talk about his reasons for not supporting the “Employee Free Choice Act,â€Â which is supported by both Herseth and Johnson. Â
This just came from Thune’s office:
WASHINGTON, D.C. —Senator John Thune will join representatives from the South Dakota business community, including the health care, retail, and agricultural sectors, to discuss the impact that “card checkâ€Â union organization would have on South Dakota on Friday, March 20th. Senator Thune is an outspoken opponent of card check.
“Simply put, card check union organization strips workers of a cherished American right to a secret ballot vote,†said Thune.Â
THE TRUTH, HOWEVER, IS THIS:  Under the proposed legislation, workers get to choose the union formation process—elections or majority sign-up. Under current law, employers make the choice.Â
So Thune told a bold-faced lie? Big surprise. It’s the only thing he has been good at since he has been in Washington.
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I think Thune’s true motivation is illustrated in his next sentence: “Increased unionization through card check organization and binding arbitration will mean higher costs for industries across South Dakota, leading to job losses and higher costs for consumers of many goods and services.â€Â  Thune does not support working men and women and is using scare tactics to create a smoke screen.
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It’s time that we draw public attention to John Thune‘s true focus and his track record. He supported the Wall Street bail-out, but did not support the Economic Stimulus package that will help families across the state of South Dakota. Even Gov. Rounds supported this legislation!  South Dakota’s voters need to recognized that John Thune does not have their best interest at heart.
It’s also time to reveal all the earmarks he put in a bill that he voted against. Can you say, ‘I want my cake and I want to eat it to?’
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Therefore the SDDP is holding a rally tomorrow at 2:00pm outside of the Chamber of Commerce. We need people from all walks of life to attend – men, women, older and younger, to show that John Thune’s policies simply do not reflect the interests of the vast majority of South Dakotans.
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PLEASE BE THERE!Â
I don’t know all the specifics of the bill, but the non-secret ballot issue does concern me. There would simply be too much pressure on the employee and they could be unfairly targeted due to how they voted.
Secret ballot is the only way to go in my opinion. It protects the employee regardless of how they vote. If the employee votes for a union and it doesn’t pass, the employer might use that against the employee. On the flip side, if the employee doesn’t vote for a union and the vote does pass, the union might use that against the employee.
I just don’t see how non-secret ballots help anyone other than those who might like to use intimidation to get people to vote their way.
Our public elections are secret for a reason, and union elections should be no different.
Seconded on the secret ballot thing, but I’m still not sure of all the specifics of this bill.
Union officials (thugs) have been known to harass workers who want to de-unionize – showing up at their homes and job sites to lobby them.
On a local level, I’m cool with unions and think they do a lot of good. It’s the national organizations that are corrupt and a waste of the hard-earned money of their members.
I just don’t see the big deal about having the choice of card check or secret ballot? And why are conservatives like Thune bold-face lying about it? Hightower’s latest N/L was about the topic, he points out that there used to be a choice, but the corporate fat cats widdled it away. Really all we are doing is returning it to how it originally was.
http://www.jimhightower.com/
Taking back to how it originally was is a step in the wrong direction. By mandating card check, it allows union pressure to have people sign the cards. The threat of intimidation is huge.
Put this into perspective – it is just like the process of collecting signatures for a ballot initiative. A lot of people will sign a petition to get an item on a ballot, but sometimes those people sign just because they don’t want to be rude or because they feel pressured. However – when that person is in the voting booth they get to make their choice on their own with no pressure from either side, and that choice is a private matter.
If you take away the secret ballot, you force people to deal with potential harrassment and pressure to do what the organizer wants them to do. We’ve seen cases where groups of people approach individuals to get them to offer their support, and that type of intimidation is unacceptable regardless of which side it happens from.
Clearly there are improvements that could be made to the current system, and one of them could be for the card check process to also be secret and verified by an outside party to prevent employers from retaliating against pro-union employees, but this free choice act doesn’t seem like a good idea in my view.
If someone proposed a law that allowed your friends, family, neighbors, co-workers, and everyone else to see how you voted in all elections from this day forward I can promise you people would be up in arms, so why should we allow everyone to see how an employee votes?
The only reason anyone would want this is to allow the use of intimidation and pressure. It’s dirty and shameful, and I’m afraid because of this one key point of the bill I’d have to agree with Thune on this one.
Costner – they are not taking away the secret ballot. How many times do I have to say it!
They aren’t taking it away in all cases, but if a union collects cards from over 50% of employees they can force unionization on a company without a secret ballot.
So yes – in this case they are taking away the secret ballot and intimidationg WILL be an issue!
Check for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
How is this a good thing?
This isn’t amateur hour, Costner. Post sources that more reliable than WIKI.
I’m not saying this particular info isn’t valid, I’m just saying it makes you look lazy and stupid.
that ARE more reliable… ok.. it might be amateur hour….
Christ – there are 39 references in the wiki page… surely you can find one of them you consider valid.
What is most ironic about this is that the Hightower link that lewis used in turn contains a link about the bill that points directly to the wiki page… so I’m only using the information provided here. If you want to call someone lazy and stupid, I guess you better refer to Mr. Hightower.
However, if you insist I do the legwork for you, one of the wiki links points here to the actual bill: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:H.R.800:
That in turn leads you to the text where in section 2, you will find this little gem:
“If the Board finds that a majority of the employees in a unit appropriate for bargaining has signed valid authorizations designating the individual or labor organization specified in the petition as their bargaining representative and that no other individual or labor organization is currently certified or recognized as the exclusive representative of any of the employees in the unit, the Board shall not direct an election but shall certify the individual or labor organization as the representative“.
So in short – if 50.001% sign cards indicating they want a union (or rather if 50.001% can be intimidated into signing the cards), there is no secret ballot and they are just unionized.
Nothing like a little peer pressure to get people to join up for the cause huh?
I read all that crap already.. I was just looking for someone to poke in the eye.. it could have been anyone really.
awww the Dem are always looking for anything that they can do to make a Rep. look bad. They don’t really care about the issue.
You notice that they waited for warm weather to stand outside–weenies!
Costner- Since Hightower has loyal subscribers like myself, he does not post his N/L online.
Voter- Nice weather? No, just a rare appearance by John Thune in SD Public.
The link I’m referring to is embedded in his latest “Hightower Lowdown”, which is on the left hand side of the page that your link led me to.
If the source is good enough for Hightower, and good enough for you to link to Hightower, then I’ll assume it is good enough for me too.
So in short – if 50.001% sign cards indicating they want a union (or rather if 50.001% can be intimidated into signing the cards), there is no secret ballot and they are just unionized.
Nothing like a little peer pressure to get people to join up for the cause huh?
~costner
I’ve been in and around unions for thirty years costner. I’ve never held a union office, nor was I ever pressured to join, nor did I ever see anyone else pressured to join. In the early days I worked for some non union shpos and some union shops. The ONLY pressure I EVER seen exerted in all those years was the threat of losing your job if the word union was EVER even mentioned.
MANAGEMENT held ALL the cards when it came to dity tricks. Deal with it costner.
Well said Warren. I have never been in a union but considered starting a graphic artist union in Sioux Falls a few years back, but never got around to it.
I have never heard a union member EVER tell me they hated being in a union, in fact the exact opposite. Some have complained about procedures, etc, but it has never pissed them off enough to want to quit. In fact every single union member I have ever met are very proud to be in a union, and know that they could have never had a nice house, a nice car or sent their kids to school being non-union in their profession. Like a comment I read the other day, not everyone can be a white collar worker (lawyer, doctor, etc.) America needs ditch diggers to, don’t they deserve the American dream also? I think so. I’ll leave you with a little Billy Bragg;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KO90EdKB-g
So your experience is true for all unions then Warren?
Nice try, but we all know union intimidation DOES happen regardless if it happened to you or not. There have been countless cases of scare tactics and we’ve all heard stories of union thugs knocking on someone’s door telling them to sign their card.
The thing is, a secret ballot benefits the union member and there is no legitimate reason to eliminate that benefit. If they are forced to sign a card in public and refuse, the union officials could retaliate. If they do sign a card in public and aren’t able to get the majority of their co-workers to agree with them, the employer might use it against them.
Give me one good reason why our public elections for Congress, Mayor, President, City Council etc, etc should be private/secret but the elections for a union should be public?
I’m listening, so if you can give me a good reason that I haven’t thought of by all means I’ll consider it.
Otherwise…deal with it Warren.
l3wis.
Gotta tell a little story about a venture of mine back into the workforce. I retired relatively early a few years ago thanks in large part to union that provided for me a fair days pay for a fair days work, a relatively healthy 401k plan, and a pension. And with social security coming in a few years, I can’t complain. Anyway, all my honey-do’s got up to date, all my friends were working, and talking to a dog all day long can get a little boring. So I went out a few months ago looking for a part time job. The pay was not really a factor, nor were any bennies because I already have them. Just something to do for about 4 hours a day. Took a while to find something that did not require an alarm clock, but it did come along. Having been in a union environment for as long as I was provided me with a real cultural shock. I really believed places like this were extinct around the turn of the last century. Nobody talked. Nobody smiled. Everyone was like a zombie. Clock in. Produce. Clock out. And heaven help you if you got caught talking to the person next to you. Non Union of course. I lasted three days. Those three days reminded me every minute I was there of this song. I played it in my mind a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_bvT-DGcWw&feature=related
There have been countless cases of scare tactics and we’ve all heard STORIES of union thugs knocking on someone’s door telling them to sign their card.
~costner
And that’s EXACTLY what they are costner. STORIES dreamed up by management to spread phear. Sioux Falls has about 130,000 jobs in it. Give me just one verifiable case of union thugs knocking on someones door in the last twenty years.
I’m not talking about Sioux Falls Warren and I’ll admit I’ve never heard of any blatant stiffarm tactics here in Sioux Falls.
However, a relative of mine used to work for one of the large HVAC contractors here in town and he told me in no uncertain terms that he was told he MUST join the union. He wasn’t asked if he wanted to, he was told to. End of story.
He worked there for about a decade and never had much good to say about his union. Now granted that is one man’s opinion, but shouldn’t he still have the option to NOT join if he desires without fear of reprisal?
That being said, what I was really referring to are unions from larger cities in other industries that essentially tell people they will unionize period. You go try to work for the shipping yards in New Jersey or the assembly line in Detroit and let me know how far you get without joining the union.
Don’t even suggest for a second that union thugs don’t exist. It takes 3 seconds to find legitimate reports via a Google search.
Case in point:
http://www.nrtw.org/en/blog/engineer-union-officials-seek-worker-s-firing-three-times-refusal-join
http://laborpains.org/index.php/2008/01/24/union-intimidation-is-alive-at-the-uaw/
Deny it all you wish, but we both know it does happen. It might not happen very often just as police might not get caught beating a suspect very often – but it does happen.
So again (since you appear to have avoided the question the first time I asked) I’ll ask you again: Give me one good reason why our public elections for Congress, Mayor, President, City Council etc, etc should be private/secret but the elections for a union should be public?
I just don’t see the benefit here. Eliminating the secret ballot in some cases could result in negative repurcusions to the worker from either the employer or from the union organizers. How is this helping the actual worker?
costner.
As someone who has been down both sides of the road, I can tell you I have seen ALL of what is depicted here.
http://appropriations.senate.gov/Hearings/2008_04_02_-Labor-_Testimony_of_Dr_Gordon_Lafer_at_the_April_2_Labor_Subcommittee_Hearing.pdf?CFID=7661821&CFTOKEN=65054032
Like I said before costner, phear tactics are an art management like yourself rely on. If you had your way these Sioux Falls jobs listed below would probsbly be even lower than they already are. There are 132,000 jobs in SF, and this is what makes up the bulk of them. Be proud costner. Be real proud.
There are…
27,380 Office Support Occupations in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $12.49.
15,040 Sales Occupations in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $12.02.
11,910 Food Preparation Occupations in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $8.22.
9,750 Material Moving Occupations in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $12.28
9,610 Production Occupations in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $13.08
5,480 Customer Service Representatives in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $12.02
5,250 Retail Salespersons in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $9.50
4,330 Building Maintenance Occupations in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $10.46
3,750 Personal Care and Service Occupations in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $10.16
3,180 Healthcare Support Occupations in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $11.90
2,940 Cashiers in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $8.78
2,730 Bookkeeping Accounting and Auditing clerks in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $12.91
2,420 Freight Stock and Material Movers in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $10.87
2,360 Janitors in SF where the 50th percentile wage is LESS than $10.29
You lose all credibility when you assume I’m management or that I’m anti-union. Your emotional appeals aside, you continue to ignore the question posted to you twice.
Not even the most pro-union defender can give me one reason why a vote shouldn’t be held in secret. It just opens the door to retalitation from both sides, and that isn’t good for the employee.
I guess the employee isn’t the priority here however – it is all about protecting the union.
How sad.
Your question was answered in my link costner. You obviously did not take the 5 minutes of time it would take to read it. I assure you intimidation and coersion, by MANAGEMENT, does happen, far more often than the bullshit you’re slinging. Remember, management holds the trump card.
“Power over a man’s purse is power over his will.”
~Alexander Hamilton
The so-called secret ballot is a sham, and “secret” in name only. Whether we’re talking about a shop of 20 plumbers, or electricians, or a manufacturing plant of thousands, MANAGEMENT knows who is and is not voting, and what way. And those who try to organize it? Often times…FIRED. Does that sound like the American way, or the way of a third world dictator?
from http://appropriations.senate.gov/Hearings/2008_04_02_-Labor-_Testimony_of_Dr_Gordon_Lafer_at_the_April_2_Labor_Subcommittee_Hearing.pdf?CFID=7661821&CFTOKEN=65054032
The principle of the secret ballot is that you have the right to keep your political opinions to yourself forever, not just for the 60 seconds that you stand in the voting booth. By permitting employers to limit the secrecy of the ballot to the moment of voting, the NLRB system has hollowed out the fundamental meaning of this principle.
from http://www.aflcio.org/joinaunion/voiceatwork/efca/majoritysignup.cfm
Do so-called secret ballot elections allow employees a free and fair opportunity to make their own decisions about unions?
No. By the time employees get to vote, the environment has been so poisoned that free and fair choice isn’t an option. People call the current National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) election system a secret ballot election—but in fact it’s not like any democratic election held anywhere else in our society. It’s really a management-controlled election process because corporations have all the power. They control the information workers can receive and routinely poison the process by intimidating, harassing, coercing and even firing people who try to organize unions. No employee has free choice after being browbeaten by a supervisor to oppose the union or being told they may lose their job and livelihood if workers vote for the union.
from http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2007_record&position=all&page=E260
The Employee Free Choice Act would add some fairness to the system by: (1) allowing a majority of employees the opportunity to select to be represented by a union by expressing their decision through the signing of authorization cards; (2) provide for mediation and arbitration when workers and employers cannot agree on a first contract; and (3) increase penalties against employers who threaten, intimidate or fire workers for engaging in protected activity.
If you really want to learn more about what the EFCA is, go here.
http://www.aflcio.org/joinaunion/voiceatwork/efca/
If you want to listen to more phear mongering, listen to costner.
Listen – I’ve said before that there are good things about this bill, but the elimination of the secret ballot when 50.00001% of the workers sign (or are intimidated into signing) their authorization card isn’t one of them.
Are there things we can do to improve the process to ensure the worker benefits? You bet, but taking away their privacy and letting everyone around know who signed (or didn’t sign) a authorization card isn’t a benefit to the worker.
I guess I was under the impression the little guy is who we should care about, not the management and not the union leadership. I guess I was wrong.
“You lose all credibility when you assume I’m management or that I’m anti-union.”
Well are you Costner? I think it is a fair question.
As Benny Hill used to say, “Don’t Assume, because you will make an . . .
Nope – I’m not. Actually to be entirely honest, I’ve never worked in a business that ever had union workers as far as I remember, so I haven’t spent time on either side of that one.
I did work in a large retail store in high school that was considering organizing, but it never happened. Beyond that I have never been in a position to unionize or prevent others from doing so.
As to me being anti-union, that is also untrue. Unions have a time and purpose, and have been used for the benefit of many a worker. I may have problems with the actions of specific unions, but that doesn’t suggest the principle isn’t valid just as I might have a problem with the actions of some police officers I don’t hold it against the law enforcement community at large.