I decided to make Sy’s comment it’s own post;
Sy says:
June 24th, 2009 at 9:14 pm eI attended the meeting today (WED), they are stuck on the HWF/Arena site, but aren’t sure if we should build one be all end all Events Center or maybe look at two facilities. One for games/concerts and another for conventions/tradeshows/events.
Didn’t seem to occur to them that if we are talking two facilities, we should be talking two sites. They kept referring to an Arena vs. a Coliseum.
They want to figure out that question before they ask the Consultant to put together a pro-forma on whether or not the thing will fly.
They also were at the point of eliminating the idea of an indoor football venue, but didn’t want to make that call since the one major backer of that idea (I can only assume they meant Dykehouse) wasn’t in attendance.
I’ll give them credit, they are trying. But they can’t see the forest through the trees.
Some other points;
We are seriously behind the 8 ball on all phases, whether you are talking conventions, trade shows, concerts, games, etc. It’s amazing we draw what we draw. We lose or almost lose a ton of business due to lack or airline service. The person who usually signs the contract nearly craps him/herself when he looks at direct flights into SF vs. Omaha. We also lack the type & number of hotel rooms they want, the shopping & dining amenities they want, and the overall experience most of these people are accustomed too. It’s amazing we can book shit at all.
Also, they are taking their sweet time, but you can tell the sentiment of trying to please everyone is guiding the process. Again, the point of the Task Force should be to put together the best plan, whether or not it’s the most popular or it’s on the path of least resistance. They are going to put together a plan, then ask the consultant to give them the pro-forma to make it fly politically, which seems entirely bass-ackwards to me.
We lose or almost lose a ton of business due to lack or airline service. The person who usually signs the contract nearly craps him/herself when he looks at direct flights into SF vs. Omaha.
~Sy
I had some cousins come to SF last year from both the coasts for a family rebellion. They all flew to Sioux City, rented cars there, and spent a week in SF with their own transportation. Both roundtrip from Sioux City AND a weeks transportation for LESS than the roundtrip in and out of Sioux Falls. So it’s not just Omaha that beats us up on airfare.
What a load of crap. I thought the members of the task force were supposed to be able to make decisions based on the evidence and actually accomplish something.
These dolts don’t seem like the type of people who could even get out of jury duty.
I guess I will repost this since I had commented on the other thread before this was its own topic:
We don’t have the dining amenities they want? Are you serious? At one point, and I can’t say if this is still the case, Sioux Falls had more resturaunts per capita than any city in the US.
As far as hotel rooms, if there is demand there will be a supply, but hotels can’t live upon a half dozen large events a year – they need to keep their occupancy rates up on a consistent level if they want to remain in business, so that is a fairly lame excuse.
Flights in and out of our airport is hardly something that will change due to a few conventions or big events either. We are a city of roughly 150,000 whereas the Omaha area sits at closer to 850,000. To put that in perspective, they have almost as many people in the Omama area than we have in our ENTIRE STATE.
If people don’t think we offer enough for their needs as far as I’m concerned they should seek other alternatives. I don’t think our entire city should base itself around how many conventions or concerts they can pack in each year. A city should be built around the residents who actually live there 365 days a year instead of those who come for a visit, and frankly it would be a refreshing change to hear just one of our city “leaders†come out in the open and say something other than we need to grow and expand.
Merely getting bigger is never going to solve the problems and in many cases it just presents new ones. At what point do people just stand back and say we might just be big enough?
Why all the focus on trying to compete with Omaha or Fargo or Des Moines or Sioux City? We are what we are – we aren’t going to change that, and we aren’t going to die off just because a few concerts or conventions overlook us for larger venues.
“I had some cousins come to SF last year from both the coasts for a family rebellion. They all flew to Sioux City, rented cars there, and spent a week in SF with their own transportation. Both roundtrip from Sioux City AND a weeks transportation for LESS than the roundtrip in and out of Sioux Falls. So it’s not just Omaha that beats us up on airfare.”
Almost every time I fly I try to price out tickets from Sioux Falls, Sioux City, and Omaha.
Never once have I ever found a significant reduction out of Sioux City. In fact I think the largest difference in price I ever found was something like $30 a ticket, so it wasn’t even worth the gas and parking fees to try and use them.
I’m sure in some cases flights are cheaper out of Sioux City, but I’m sure in other cases they are cheaper out of Sioux Falls. There is no way you will convince me that Sioux City is cheaper on any large scale or that they are cheaper consistently.
Omaha on the other hand – well that is a different story. Larger airports offer more options which in many cases results in cheaper airfare, but even then I’ve found a few times where the difference between the two was minimal and not worth my time to drive down to Omaha.
My last two flights were from Omaha however, because I was able to save about $200 per ticket – and when you are flying with two people, $400 is enough to warrant a little drive and $18 worth of long-term parking.
I think if we bought MCC and turned it into a State Park with camping facilities, and build a road to boot, we would have plenty of accomodations for events in Sioux Falls.
And I agree Costner. Who are we competing with in SF? And why must we grow so fast? I liken it to why men with little dicks buy Hummer’s and Harley’s.
We don’t have the dining amenities they want? Are you serious? At one point, and I can’t say if this is still the case, Sioux Falls had more resturaunts per capita than any city in the US.
All those restaurants and nowhere to eat…
We are a city of roughly 150,000 whereas the Omaha area sits at closer to 850,000. To put that in perspective, they have almost as many people in the Omama area than we have in our ENTIRE STATE.
To fairly compare apples to apples here, our metro area’s population is closer to 250,000. But your point is still valid.
And I agree Costner. Who are we competing with in SF? And why must we grow so fast? I liken it to why men with little dicks buy Hummer’s and Harley’s.
Like it or not, we are competing with similarly sized towns in the region. Though concerts, conventions, and other revenue generating events are a big part of that, a much bigger part is jobs – people who will live here 365 days a year, own property, and spend money here daily. Better QoL stuff means more and better paying jobs down the road. Should we be smarter about where we invest our tax dollars? Absolutely. But failing to recognize that we are in a competition with every other city in the region would be a mistake.
Thanks, L3wis for breaking this post out.
Here’s the deal, we could overcome the airline problem if we had as good or better facilities and/or amenities. And we aren’t talking the Mall & Chilis. What we are talking about is a shopping, drinking, dining & and entertainment experience all within walking distance.
Why did Orlando grow so fast? Dad can go to the Moose convention while Mom and the kids can go play. I know we aren’t or ever will be on that scale, but we need be thinking along those lines.
Another point that was raised, is that more often in not they look at one city in SD and that typically means us or Rapid. They already have a proposal that they are moving forward on to expand Rushmore to increase their capacities. Rushmore already has more sellable space than we do. Terri from the CVB made the comment that when they are done, Rapid City will leave us in the dust.
So, yes we are competing against Omaha, but even little ‘ol RC is going to exploit where our heads have been lodged for the last 8 years.
Though concerts, conventions, and other revenue generating events are a big part of that, a much bigger part is jobs – people who will live here 365 days a year, own property, and spend money here daily. Better QoL stuff means more and better paying jobs down the road.
~GoD
All a McArena will bring this town is a flood of part-time poverty level jobs with ZERO benefits. Do we need even MORE of that?
Almost every time I fly I try to price out tickets from Sioux Falls, Sioux City, and Omaha.
Never once have I ever found a significant reduction out of Sioux City.
~Costner
All I’m sayin is last summer three seperate flights, four in each party, from Atlanta, Denver, and LA were cheap enough to have a rental paid for while they were here.
And why must we grow so fast? I liken it to why men with little dicks buy Hummer’s and Harley’s.
~l3wis
You forgot to mention 44 mags and AR-15’s l3wis. Real “men” don’t leave home without em.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2ez8oxCLfU&feature=related
All a McArena will bring this town is a flood of part-time poverty level jobs with ZERO benefits. Do we need even MORE of that?
I see you need the same prescription of glasses as the TF. Myopia must suck.
I wasn’t talking about the people who’d work at any new restaurants, hotels, bars that pop up around a new EC. We’re competing for real economic development with other cities in the region. Companies looking to locate facilities in a new city look at things like schools, crime, housing costs, and quality of life improvements when considering locations. So far, all we can do is say we have decent schools and cheap housing (along with a cheap workforce). While that’s plenty to attract call centers and phone banks, it doesn’t cut it for anything better.
You forgot to mention 44 mags and AR-15’s l3wis. Real “men†don’t leave home without em.
I prefer to wear a huge codpiece. It’s cheaper.
I agree an Event Center would be good for the community, for several reasons, but I also agree with Costner that the Event Center needs to serve the community and it’s citizens first and the visitors second. If we build the place based on the citizens needs and wants and an agreeable funding source, it will be used.
I wasn’t talking about the people who’d work at any new restaurants, hotels, bars that pop up around a new EC. We’re competing for real economic development with other cities in the region. Companies looking to locate facilities in a new city look at things like schools, crime, housing costs, and quality of life improvements when considering locations. So far, all we can do is say we have decent schools and cheap housing (along with a cheap workforce). While that’s plenty to attract call centers and phone banks, it doesn’t cut it for anything better.
~GoD
Dude…just how is an “event” center that MIGHT attract a few more acts than our current facility going to spur economic developement? How is a shiny new 600 unit hotel DOWNTOWN going to survive with a once in a blue moon concert from the likes of Neil Diamond? The answer is simple. It can’t. Just like the downtown hotels now sit nearly empty three out of four nights.
I’ve asked this before, and all I get is the sounds of crickets chirping. In the SIX years the 10,000 seat Tyson Center in Sioux City has been open for business, how many “events” have they had our own Arena could not have handled?
This thing we just gotta have has Washington Pavillion written all over it.
I talked to someone at lunch that went to the meeting. They told me that the Task Force is concerned because the new EC won’t have a tenant, for example, The Fargo Dome has UND. This will be essential to getting public support.
*cough* Sanford
Never once have I ever found a significant reduction out of Sioux City.
~Costner
Just did a search for one of the three. Are LA and Atlanta any different? Prolly not.
Sioux City to Denver
$227.00 + $37.30 taxes & fees = $264.30
6:56 pm Depart Sioux City (SUX)
Arrive Denver (DEN) 10:33 pm Thu 16-Jul
Duration: 4hr 37mn Northwest 3216 / 547
**********
Sioux Falls to Denver
$360.00 + $16.70 taxes & fees = $376.70
6:20 am Depart Sioux Falls (FSD)
Arrive Denver (DEN) 6:50 am Thu 16-Jul
Duration: 1hr 30mn UNITED 5801
Well maybe it is time they allowed Sioux Falls to get a true state funded University. This remote college campus idea (University Center) is a good start, but imagine if we had the University of South Dakota: Sioux Falls. They could be a “tenant” of the new EC.
Or you can try to convince Augie to use it….best of luck.
Sy: Why did Orlando grow so fast? Dad can go to the Moose convention while Mom and the kids can go play. I know we aren’t or ever will be on that scale, but we need be thinking along those lines.
Great – all we need to do is convince Disney to open a theme park in Sioux Falls and we are set. Add the Sanford sponsored First Premier rollercoaster and you’re there.
This type of thinking just shows my point however – it is all about competition and getting bigger. Who cares why Orlando grew so fast – who says we need to grow that fast or grow at all? I’m not talking total isolationism here, but I don’t buy into the argument that a city must continue to expand in order to remain viable.
Just did a search for one of the three. Are LA and Atlanta any different? Prolly not.
As I said, sometimes Sioux City is cheaper, sometimes they aren’t.
To prove my point I just searched for flights going to Minneapolis departing on 07/01/09.
Sioux City: $1088
Sioux Falls: $625
See – and this was the very first search I tried. It just matters where you are going and the dates you select, but in no way can you state that Sioux City is always cheaper. In this case only a fool would choose Sioux City instead of Sioux Falls.
I’ve asked this before, and all I get is the sounds of crickets chirping. In the SIX years the 10,000 seat Tyson Center in Sioux City has been open for business, how many “events†have they had our own Arena could not have handled?
How many acts have skipped over SF in favor of SC anyway? Whether our own arena could have handled them is moot. They didn’t come here because the facilities are inferior and they had the potential to sell more tickets in SC.
Dude…just how is an “event†center that MIGHT attract a few more acts than our current facility going to spur economic developement?
Because having a nice facility that can host concerts and shows with the potential to attract larger acts is better than being the only town our size in the region that doesn’t have one. It isn’t a concrete certainty that it will draw jobs here, but it certainly won’t hurt. Whereas not having one will almost definitely hurt us.
In most cases better deals can be had out of Sioux City. Here….let Expedia show you how.
Sioux City
http://www.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll?qscr=fexp&flag=q&city1=SUX&citd1=DEN&date1=07/16/09&time1=362&date2=07/23/09&time2=362&cAdu=1&cSen=&cChi=&cInf=&infs=2&tktt=3&trpt=2&ecrc=&eccn=&qryt=8&rdct=1&olacid=icm.smartertravel.bookingbuddy.buttons.flight..
Sioux Falls
http://www.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll?qscr=fexp&flag=q&city1=FSD&citd1=DEN&date1=07/16/09&time1=362&date2=07/23/09&time2=362&cAdu=1&cSen=&cChi=&cInf=&infs=2&tktt=3&trpt=2&ecrc=&eccn=&qryt=8&rdct=1&olacid=icm.smartertravel.bookingbuddy.buttons.flight..
Sy-
Didn’t you think it was kinda weird that the Task Force asked the people in attendance to introduce themselves? What did you say?
Theresa told me she thought they were screening for the media.
Johnny Roastbeef and I found out last year that sometimes it’s not price but plane changes that get annoying when flying out of Sioux Falls. We got tickets to San Fran out of Omaha. Direct Flight, 4 hours.
Sioux Falls had the same price a few weeks later BUT we would have had to change planes twice and I think it would have extended the trip to 8-10 hours.
Costner, you missed my point on Orlando. We already built a Convention Center with a nice hotel attached to it. We aren’t getting it fully utilized for the following reasons:
1. Not enough sellable floor space.
2. Not enough decent rooms aroud it.
3. Airfare in & out of SUX, well actually sucks.
4. Not enough nearby amenities to make up for 1-3.
5. Even if a group like Pheasants Forever can get past all those, we don’t have very many open dates that will not be a conflict. Since we have concerts, games, home shows, boat shows etc. all in the mix at the same place, there’s many times where we can’t pull a date to accomodate them because it’s booked.
Again, in a few years we won’t even get the looks we are getting today because Rapid will be head and shoulders a better option.
L3wis,
“Theresa told me she thought they were screening for the media.”
Exactly what I thought as well. KDLT was there and filming for a bit. But I think there would’ve been a different tone if the AL or another news outlet was there.
Warren,
We’ve been down this road before. Fargo spent $40 mil or so to build the Dome. In it’s first decade it has returned $142 million in direct economic impact and an additional $320 million indirect economic impact. To think that we wouldn’t realize a similar payback is simply naive’.
So they are now building a new Arena on to it for Hockey & Basketball. No one up there is questioning it’s viablility, they are simply going “CHA-Ching” and laughing their asses off at what a complete clusterphuckheads we are by comparision.
We shouldn’t be playing second fiddle to Fargo, RC or Sioux City in anything, especially since none of them can sniff our jock when it comes to growth, economy, taxes etc.
“Again, in a few years we won’t even get the looks we are getting today because Rapid will be head and shoulders a better option.”
First of all Rapid is a town built upon tourism, so it would be all but impossible to compete with the number of rooms etc they have available. Second, ask someone who lives in Rapid City how the job market is, and you will soon find out how much they envy Sioux Falls. People complain about our white collar credit card industry not paying much, but they are a lot better than waiters and housekeeping positions at the local Holiday Inn.
I’ve got family out there and they hate the tourism. It might bring in some cash, but the summers out there are pretty miserable because of it. I think you would find aside from the geography and the weather, most Rapid City residents would change places with us in a heartbeat.
“We shouldn’t be playing second fiddle to Fargo, RC or Sioux City in anything, especially since none of them can sniff our jock when it comes to growth, economy, taxes etc.”
Both of these quotes are more examples of what I’m talking about, and two more examples that show me it isn’t about the citizens – it is about competition with other cities.
Whether it is a pro-EC individual, a task force member, a downtown business owner, or a member of the city council the argument for a new EC is always about what we might miss out on as events are held in other cities.
So what if they are? Big deal. Sioux Falls will still be Sioux Falls even if Sugarland or Bon Jovi or a convention for used bowling ball salesman decides to visit Fargo or Sioux City instead.
A new Events Center shouldn’t be about competition with other cities, and it shouldn’t just be about tax revenue either. It should be about offering additional entertainment options etc to the residents. It should be about improving lifestyles and culture rather than being so concerned if the payback will exist.
In most cases better deals can be had out of Sioux City. Here….let Expedia show you how.
Again you are talking about Denver only. I already showed where the opposite was true if you are going to Minneapolis – by a huge margin.
So how about San Diego? Let Expedia show you.
Sioux Falls: $323
Sioux City: $563
Sioux Falls saves $240
How about Las Vegas?
Sioux Falls: $289
Sioux City: $338
Sioux Falls saves $49
How about Seattle?
Sioux Falls: $355
Sioux City: $829
Sioux Falls saves $474!
Those are the real numbers. It just goes to show that the argument that Sioux City is always a better option doesn’t hold water. Sometimes it might be, other times it obviously won’t.
It has jack to do with our airport being inferior and all about logistics, and therfore it has jack to do with why someone would pick one over the other for conventions or events because for all intents and purposes it is a moot point and any education business person isn’t going to let a few hundred dollars in airfare make up their mind when choosing a destination, because if that were the case everyone would hold their conventions in Vegas.
Where EXACTLY did I say ALWAYS costner? I gave a specific example where three of my extended family from Atlanta, Denver, and LA found it much cheaper to fly to Sioux City than Sioux Falls last summer. Take it from there.
Costner,
” It should be about improving lifestyles and culture rather than being so concerned if the payback will exist.”
Are you new to town? An EC is an investment and one of the few things a city can invest in that will help the City grow and pay back on that investment many times over. I’m sorry, but if you aren’t growing, you are going backwards.
Growth is what leads to improving culture and lifestyles. If you offer things here that people don’t have to travel to see or do, instead of sending our dollars up to the Cities, we will keep them here. We may even draw some more in that would’ve went elsewhere. This will allow our City to keep it’s taxes as low as possible, while helping to expand the pie that we all draw from.
The proof of this success is right there in front of you. We are in a brutal, nationwide recession and SF is handling it much better than nearly every other City in the country, or the planet for that matter. Many of those places are having to raise taxes and/or cut services which hurt those at the bottom much more than those at the top.
Are you new to town? An EC is an investment and one of the few things a city can invest in that will help the City grow and pay back on that investment many times over. I’m sorry, but if you aren’t growing, you are going backwards.
Every time you type something it just proves my point over and over. All your concern is about growth – but who says a city needs to keep growing?
Don’t give me that line about if you aren’t growing you’re going backwards. Sometimes staying where you are isn’t such a bad thing. There are a lot of people who would be very happy if the population of the metro area would remain somewhat stable instead of feeling like we need to be the next Omaha.
The whole return on investment argument is somewhat debatable as well. I recall reading the city’s own figures on teh tax revenue it would bring in both directly and indirectly and it wasn’t nearly as impressive as some would have us beleive. I searched the city’s website and the eventscenter task force website but that study seems to be missing…. I wonder what the reasoning is for that?
Of course this is the same task force that has been working since 2004 and told us we needed at least 15,000 seats….only to have a study by an outside firm tell us we only need 10,000, and the largest regular occurring event is considered to be high school basketball which uses 7,200 maximum, so it seems to me the “task force” is just a gigantic waste of tax dollars.
How many more junkets are these people going to do? They have already been to Fargo, they have been to Sioux City, they have been to Omaha, and they have spent five years debating the subject. Either poop or get off the pot….it’s time to make a call and just stick with it.
Costner,
“Every time you type something it just proves my point over and over. All your concern is about growth – but who says a city needs to keep growing?”
This city will grow whether we want it too or not. We can either manage it properly or let it manage us.
How exactly would you stop it if suddenly everyone agreed we are at the proper population base?
I’m not saying we should stop growth and I’m not saying it will stop, but the simply rather vague term “growth” should not be the excuse to justify every single project that comes from the minds within city hall.
The fact is they aren’t saying this will serve the citizens and they aren’t presenting it as a cultural or entertainment opportunity… it is just all about growth and more jobs.
I’m not saying we should stop growth and I’m not saying it will stop, but the simply rather vague term “growth†should not be the excuse to justify every single project that comes from the minds within city hall.
What type of growth would you prefer stopped? Population growth may be a good thing to at least be careful about, but economic stagnation means that yes, we are going backwards – just like nearly every other town in SD.
No matter how the population grows, if the econmomy doesn’t grow, we’re in trouble.
Provided the economy grows in turn with the population or hell even in terms of inflation we will be just fine. The argument that we need to keep growing or die is frankly unsustainable. There has to be an end eventually and I simply don’t believe that a city needs to keep expanding in order to remain viable.
It might not be a popular opinion and I know no city council member would ever suggest it considering most of them have heavy ties to developers or business leaders in the community, but it’s just the reality.
There has to be an end eventually and I simply don’t believe that a city needs to keep expanding in order to remain viable.
Growth and expansion are different things. Our economy and population need to both grow in order to keep the city viable. It is simply not possible to sustain zero growth. You can have negative growth or positive, but it’s never zero.
Expansion is different, and I tend to agree that we don’t need to be growing outward nearly as fast as we are. It strains infrastructure and ultimately leads to higher taxes for the same service. One way to limit horizontal expansion is to have a vibrant and attractive core area that people gravitate around. Part of that would include a good entertainment district, and another part would include an events center for larger gatherings.
My business requires frequent travel. Omaha is a good option about 1/3 of the time. If I’m going to the west coast, Allegiant to Vegas then anywhere up/along the coast. I’ve often thought about a bus route between MSP, FSD, OMA, and Sioux City airports. Service every 2 hours from 4A-8P for $50 per passenger. Each city could make up for airline fees with parking revenue. The service would also be used for postal and baggage service. It’d be something like the old Jackrabbit Bus Line. Sometimes you can get back home by coming in at MSP then take a bus versus a 5 hour layover. If airports are alternatively connected, then prices stabilize. When a flight is cancelled, the airline could put passengers on the bus and still get them there without putting them up overnight.