Joseph made this comment at the end of this interview about the little-publicized humanitarian crisis in South Dakota following the worst winter weather in decades after the radio host, Tavis Smiley, says the US government has apologized for what they did to Native Americans, and that was Joseph’s response. I couldn’t agree more. It’s kinda like a burglar stealing your car and apologizing for stealing it, but still continues to drive it.
More like a burgler stealing your car, offering to pay for it, putting a lot of money aside (more than the car is probably worth) should you decide to take him up on the offer, and then you wanting the car back instead.
Ok so which tribe gets the “tribal lands”? Because they had been fighting and stealing them from each other for hundreds of years before we ever got here.
If you took a poll, most Native Americans think they should get the entire state of South Dakota, along with North Dakota, and large percentages of at least a dozen other states. How do you expect to work out the logistics of that? Better hand over Hawaii to the native people as well as Alaska too…we had no right to buy it since the sellers had no right to sell it.
We bought Florida, but native tribes were already there… so I guess we need to hand that over as well.
Sorry, but essentially at one time there was a war… and the native peoples lost. It is no different than what has happened to countless other civilizations throughout history – the only difference is we are still trying to pay off the losers.
The one and only solution is to fully integrate all Americans and stop this silly process of division. Eliminate the tribe concept and if they want to continue to life that lifestyle they can do so just like the Amish people continue to live theirs. The sad truth is, modern natives have no real desire to return to their roots and the only time they get spiritual is when it can benefit them financially.
I don’t recall seeing a lot of Casinos on the horizon when I watched Dances With Wolves… but I guess thats progress.
Pretty much agree Costner. Where does it stop? If we give the land back to the Native Americans, reparations will be the next topic of discussion.
That land was conquered/stolen fair and square.
It’s the same thing that has happened throughout human history. One wave of human migration comes in and destroys the previous wave. New civilizations pop up from the old and time marches on.
Ghost of Dude says:
That land was conquered/stolen fair and square.
It’s been a few years dude, but after reading “Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee” I have a much different perspective than before.
For thirty years, from about 1860 to 1890, our country broke treaty after treaty with lies, deception, and murder. All in the name of “Manifest Destiny”.
Manifest Destiny…that right that gave our government the God given right to take land, by whatever means available, from the red devils of the plains.
And that makes us what, exactly?
Oh yeah, humans; just like every other civilization that ever was. Was it a shitty thing to do to break all those treaties and steal the land from its occupants? Absolutely. But I’d venture that no one alive today actually took part in the theft.
Every modern nation occupies at least some land that used to belong to someone else.
I agree with Poly. There is a difference between war and genocide. We tried to kill them off and backed out on our promises. I do agree though it is time to move on. I have often suggested we should eliminate the reservations and do a land swap.
Ghost of Dude says:
And that makes us what, exactly?
Oh yeah, humans; just like every other civilization that ever was. Was it a shitty thing to do to break all those treaties and steal the land from its occupants? Absolutely. But I’d venture that no one alive today actually took part in the theft.
EVERY MODERN NATION OCCUPIES AT LEAST SOME LAND THAT USED TO BELONG TO SOMEONE ELSE.
Not suggesting it makes US anything dude. What I am suggesting is this. History does have a way of intruding upon the past. “Manifest Destiny” guided this nation in WINNING the west, “Manifest Destiny” could guide us again.
Look at your own words again dude. You seem almost OK with apologizing for “MANIFEST DESTINY”. I cannot read your tone tho. Could be wrong. 😉
I’ve read a lot of books in my life. “Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee” is one of the few I WILL read again. Try it. You might like it.
Look at your own words again dude. You seem almost OK with apologizing for “MANIFEST DESTINYâ€. I cannot read your tone tho. Could be wrong.
Substitute “manifest destiny” for “human nature”.
It’s happened before, it’s happening now in many parts of the world, and it will happen in the future. Cultures are displaced by other cultures.
It doesn’t excuse breaking treaties with the tribes, but anyone actually involved is now dead. Time to move on.
“but anyone actually involved is now dead.”
I strongly disagree. It continues today. Did you listen to the interview?
I’m sick of it. I would not be an artist or a blogger today if it wasn’t for the encouragement of my Lakota brother, James Starkey. My great grandfather grew up in Wagner, SD and his BFF’s were Lakota, he actually spoke the language until he died. They are incredible people with deep cultural and spiritual roots.
I really believe people can rise above their problems, but when the status quo continues to beat you over the head with a shovel, it is hard to climb out of that hole.
l3wis says:
I strongly disagree. It continues today.
As do I. I remember about a year ago, maybe longer, when Israel was pulling off it’s form of manifest destiny and genocide in the Gaza Strip. What was our reaction here in the states? Look the other way? Is that what we’ve evolved into?
Ghost of Dude says:
Substitute “manifest destiny†for “human natureâ€.
Is this what we’ve evolved into dude? I like to think NOT.
Don’t even get me started with the Israel / Palestine conflict. Did you know that the Lakota call the Jews, Muslims and Christians “The 3 cousins that will destroy the world.” because they are all decendants of Abraham. Look it up, interesting analogy.
Is this what we’ve evolved into dude? I like to think NOT.
I would also like to think not, but this has been human nature from the time Ogg hit Ugg over the head with a club to steal his cave.
Things are relatively stable for us in the western world today, but you can see human nature at work all over the rest of the world. We have institutions like the UN now to try and prevent it, but it still happens.
And l3wis, when I said the people involved have died out, I meant the white folks who broke all the treaties and committed genocide.
But they can still get the grandson of the white devils to pay up. Give those poor people their land back. Things are tough all over. That being said, I’m going to get off work here in a minute and go to my second job so I can make ends meet and provide for my family. I save my drunk in the gutter time for the weekends.
Angry Guy says:
I save my drunk in the gutter time for the weekends.
Good for you AG. To each his own.
BTW….STFU
GFY too, Polly.
I South DaCola. I think I’m gonna rename it South DaFuckYa
“Oh yeah, humans; just like every other civilization that ever was. Was it a shitty thing to do to break all those treaties and steal the land from its occupants? Absolutely. But I’d venture that no one alive today actually took part in the theft.”
Oh Dude, I know people alive today that were forcibly taken from their families and beaten until they gave up their heritage, language, religion and even their hair. The Lakota religion was outlawed by the United States government as recently as the early seventies. A few religious freedoms are still denied to this day.
This might be long ago to you but is still a very fresh wound to those who live through it. There is no more insulting and condescending line than get over it or move on and will only serve to pick at that scab that is just starting to cover the wound.
“Bury My Heart” is a good book but I can’t read it, it hits too close to home. If that book is not to your tastes as well might I suggest “Neither Wolf Nor Dog” if you wish to better understand your neighbors. Unlike Bury My Heart it deals with contemporary issues and the differences in religious perceptions, family values, concepts of ownership and the value of a man’s word.
I have often admired the Lakota’s spiritual views. They have often been compared to the Wiccans. If I had to choose a religion it would be a toss up between that and Bhuddism.
If the Natives would have had guns and small pox, they could have kept their land. We took it by force and checmical war’fare and square’.
No do overs. No Backsies. We, as a nation, have paved the road to prosperity with blood and oil for hundreds of years. If we say sorry now to any of the people whose lands we’ve invaded, we can’t rightly do it in the future.
Can’t we all just smokem peace pipe and get along?
Oh Dude, I know people alive today that were forcibly taken from their families and beaten until they gave up their heritage, language, religion and even their hair. The Lakota religion was outlawed by the United States government as recently as the early seventies. A few religious freedoms are still denied to this day.
And I should somehow feel guilty for this?
Sure they should have the same religious freedom as everyone else, but I don’t feel guilty for what other people did to them a long time ago.
Please Dude, there’s no need to get defensive. No one is trying to make you feel guilty or even wants you to.
I was just trying to point out that this was not long ago, this was probably within your life time and something people my age and older grew up with. At that time full bloods, especially those holding onto traditions were routinely beaten and murdered, often by government sanctioned goon squads. That is what prompted the Wounded Knee occupation in ’73, there was a slow motion massacre going on. The Indians won that war and that is when they finally gained some control of their land. Most of their religious freedoms were restored a year or two later.
Now can you understand just how insulting it is when someone says get over it and move on? This is a people working to build a nation with little to no resources in a world that is now completely foreign to them with values that are against every fiber of their being and a steady backdrop of hostility coming from all too many… and they’ve had less than forty years to do it.
On top of all that they had to deal with the very real problem of so many of their people giving up and succumbing to the low hanging fruit of assimilation. This adds fuel to those already prone to bigotry and serves to block many economic and diplomatic doors.
I know you’re a fair man and didn’t intend to be insulting but few people seem to understand the history, the issues and the true depth and extent of the clash of cultures. Most think that the Natives had control over their lands in the early 1900s. Coming from that frame of reference I could almost understand the move on attitude but if you understood the reality of the situation I think you could understand why words like that are a slap to the face.
$218,728 raised since Tuesday night when Keith Olbermann mentioned the freezing conditions on the reservations. Olbermann has done more for SD Indians in the last 24 hours then the Governor has done.
http://www.razoo.com/story/Cheyenne-River-Sioux-Tribe-Storm-Relief-Emergency-Assistance
“Bury My Heart†is a good book but I can’t read it, it hits too close to home. If that book is not to your tastes as well might I suggest “Neither Wolf Nor Dog†if you wish to better understand your neighbors. Unlike Bury My Heart it deals with contemporary issues and the differences in religious perceptions, family values, concepts of ownership and the value of a man’s word.
~snark
Thanks for the heads up on the book. The Sioux Falls Library has one copy. Guess it is a popular book. It will be 2 to months before I can get my hands on it.
BTW. Post #22 in this topic is one of the best I have ever read. Short, but every word very much to the point. Congratulations.