Is the Facebook ‘Build it DT’ group a BS front?

1. So, your beef here is that you don’t approve of the way doing the right thing MAY be getting accomplished – you imagine? It’s the right place to build – you agree. Have you joined the group yet?

2. Exactly. If it is the right way to go, which I think it is, why use the trickery? You shouldn’t have to ‘trick’ people into something, if it is for their greater good. But I guess that is the times we are living in now, huh?

   And No, I haven’t joined the group just like I don’t participate in ‘Mafia Wars’ on Facebook either.

3. …soon Huether will jump ship on the Arena location and go along with what they are saying.

   ~l3wis

   I’ll buy into that in a heartbeat. Not quite on board with the facebook conspiracy thing. Makes one wonder tho. Here’s my theory. In typical political fashion mayor hubris promised anything and everything during his campaign to potential voters. An “Events” center was one of those promises. Not knowing a damn thing about it, as is typical from those with his background, the good mayor hubris grabbed the first “vision” plopped in front of him, along with a few bucks for his campaign.

   His “vision” for the Howard Wood site just did not make sense, not with the football field left intact, as he felt most potential voters would want it.

   I said this two weeks ago when l3wis started the mayor hubris non plan thread.

   What I don’t get is the divide between hisman and his man hildebrand. Something here just does not add up.

   I think the good mayor is already on board. He just needed to find a coaltion of backers (voters) for SOMETHING. Even if that coalition has a whopping 3 to 400 members on its facebook page. The good mayor just needed “time” to not appear like the flip flopper he is.

   Your next big hurdle mr mayor will be convincing the good folks of SF

   1) Do we really need it?

   2) How much will your “vision” cost? ALL of your “vision” mr mayor, including tearing out tracks, relocating a switching yard for the railroad, parking ramps, street widening, etc. etc. etc.

   Convincing a couple hundred DT’ers with skin in the game is one thing. Joe Sixpack AND his parents are another. Don’t believe that? Think back to the last time the city wanted to ram something down our throats.

4. Yeah, the Rec center and Indoor pool really didn’t sit well with voters.

5. No wonder the Mayor has a push poll that includes a question about preferred sites.

6. These are all smart people doing stupid shit.

7. In this push poll, the second or third question is whether you’re in favor of an event center. If you answer no, it still asks whether you want the Arena site or downtown. If I choose “no” (as I did), I obviously don’t have an answer for that question. The results of this poll are going to be flawed, as the vast majority of the “no” votes are going to be unrecorded as one has no choice but to hang up before completion.

8. I liked the poll question that asked if you prefer downtown or the arena site…. but it wouldn’t give you a “none of the above” option.

   Seems to me the decisions have already been made – they are just trying to figure out a way to “convince” the public to agree to their vision.

9. I don’t want a new Events center. Current facilities are adequate. Might we need a new one in the future? Sure. We can build it then. It doesn’t take that long once you break ground.

   I think what we need is infrastructure. Upgrades on roads, sewers and water management. You know, the stuff people actually use.

10. I can tell you with 100% certainty that it isn’t a conspiracy. Steve helped Mike get elected, and once in Mike made his moves we’ve all seen vis a vis the Events Center.

    These two go back 20 years to college, they both agree it should be downtown, as the payback vs. the Arena site is a no-brainer. Only Steve is willing to take that position publicly, and Mike just wants to get it built as soon as he can to check it off his list. This is where they part ways, it really isn’t any more complicated than that.

    A decision has already been made, and it’s the wrong one. The choice is to sit back and let a bad decision happen or jump in and try to correct the mistake before it happens.

    L3wis:

    ” And No, I haven’t joined the group just like I don’t participate in ‘Mafia Wars’ on Facebook either.”

    Unlike Mafia Wars or Farmville, this group is involved in the reality that is the Events Center debate. It’s a broad group that has both young & old, Republican & Democrat, downtown & non-downtown business people, etc.

    No one looks at an investment without some type of comaparison of at least one alternate, why shoudl we as citizens do so on the biggest single project this City has ever looked at doing?

11. Well, Sy, like every other group affiliated with this issue, it includes everybody but those that aren’t in favor of it. Citizens are welcome as long as they push the official vision.

12. Scott, it’s a group of supporters. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don’t support an Events Center, why would you join a group that does?

    Those close-minded, “Hell NO!” types who against any Events Center plan will certainly have their chance to vote against it. If they want to rally & organize, more power to them.

13. So if I’m against it then I’m close-minded? lolz

14. So if I’m against it then I’m close-minded? lolz

    Yeah. Our streets are a mess. Our sanitary and storm sewers are shot. We subsidize the zoo, the pavillion, the orpheum, great bear, and others. Our DT parking fund is so woefully underfunded they can’t even perform normal maintenance procedures. And yet we are the close minded ones. Go figure.

15. You didn’t get the memo either? Yea you’re closed minded if you are against it, but totally open minded if you support it.

    Now if you originally supported it, but now you are against it… you’re still close minded. On the other hand if you were originally against it, and now you support it… you’re open minded.

    Then again if you originally supported it, and then you were against it, and then you were for the downtown location, but then you thought you preferred the Arena location, and then you thought maybe a third location would be even better, but now you aren’t so sure… you are “semi-open, but still kinda close minded”.

    Hope that helps.

16. Ah ok, I now understand.

17. Huh..looks like I’ve got a choir of folks aching to put words in my mouth, lucky me.

    I guess I define the close minded types as no amount of information, no matter how relevant or timely, will move these people off their “Hell no” position. Many of these same types typically can’t get past the messenger to look at the message, hence also solidifying the stereotype.

    So yes; if you fall into that bucket, you’re close minded. No need to get all butthurt about it.

18. BTW, any of you who’d like to move me off my “Hell Yes” position, feel free to give it a go. Either show me how our ROI will be better at the Arena or show me how there will be no way this project will be successful over it’s 50 year lifespan. What’s happened in the last year or two won’t cut it, so if that’s your basis than don’t bother.

19. I’ve stated my reasons many times, and have yet to receive a real answer to the main one – need. I read tons of fantasyland stuff about lower ticket prices, changing modes of transportation, and other myths.

    So again, and I’m not trying to be shitty towards you Sy, you’re open-minded yet won’t budge on this but my opposing viewpoint is close-minded? Come on. I know you really can’t mean that.

20. Sy: I guess I define the close minded types as no amount of information, no matter how relevant or timely, will move these people off their “Hell no” position.

    What if someone has examined all of the available information, and came to the “no” conclusion based upon an examination of it… not based upon emotion, but based upon facts and evidence that supported such a position.

    Why does saying we don’t need this or suggesting you would vote against something – even a firm “hell no” position – automatically suggest a person is close minded?

    Frankly Sy, you could be just as closed minded as any “hell no” person, because I sincerely doubt anything anyone could say to you would move you from your “hell yes” position.

    So who is really close minded here? It isn’t just people saying no that much is for sure.

21. I could care less if it gets built or not. But if we are going to do it, I say do it right, fund it without raising taxes, and do it soon so we save money on construction costs.

22. I am still waiting for someone to make a public point about the plans for the cross town Rice/Russell connection with the bridge over the Big Sioux near John Morrell. And, of course, the fact that John Morrell won’t be there much longer. All of that prime real estate just waiting for development! And suddenly the Phillips to the Falls high end development plans make sense when there is no shithole John Morrells downtown. Did they know something in advance? Metli is part of the group, if that tells you something . . .

    Of course, they don’t want the general public to know this. They had to create the diversion at the Arena to keep the real estate prices down as they secretly acquire property in the JM’s area and in the area along Weber Ave. and Rice. Why do you think the council rejected the salvage yard down there? I suspect the new cross town route will look pretty much like Russell all the way across town to 229 when they are through. And it will be touted as a solution to the cross town traffic problem, too.

    It would be a nice change if for once the public was let in on what really is going on behind the scenes. But that is not how the reindeer games work in Sux Falls.

    Downtown makes sense with the Rice/Russell cross town route, and a new interchange at I-90 and Minnesota, access to the downtown from the West, North and East will be opened up.

    Also, you can guarantee the game is rigged for Pavilion Management to run the Events Center. Pavilion Management, especially ops director and failed Harrisburg School Board member, Jon Loos has had a woody about the prospects for years, ever since he left the Arena and now that Russ DeCurtins has passed away. The Pav can not stand fair competition. They want a monopoly, and it looks like they will get it.

    Executive Directors and Presidents at the Pavilion come and go, but Jon Loos will always be there in the shadows. Sadly.

23. The potential of Loos running it is another reason for it to never happen.

24. As a ranking officer in the US Military, he is a prime example of someone who should not run an ARTS or ENTERTAINMENT facility.

25. Scott,

    Let me ask you this, did you really need to build a store across the street from an existing one or did you simply take advantage of an opportunity to do it a little better and/or bigger? Perhaps even a better long term investment?

    And I get that your industry over the long term probably looks better than the Events, Concerts, Travel and/or Convention industries, but I don’t think those industries are dying, I think they are simply in a down cycle, like many are these days. Down cycles don’t necessarily mean you ignore opportunities, do they?

26. poly – your 3-400 FB number is quite a bit shy of the nearly 1,000 members actually there.

    Dave R – those infrastructure improvements will happen a lot less painfully with the boost to tax revenues provided from the economic impact from an EC as opposed to hanging with the status quo.

27. poly – your 3-400 FB number is quite a bit shy of the nearly 1,000 members actually there.

    Numbers courtesy of the same folks who tell us how many people attend our beer drinking fests DT.

    Another close minded person.

    http://www.argusleader.com/article/20100928/VOICES05/9280315

    All known recently built arenas in communities with similar demographic profiles to Sioux Falls have been in that approximate 7,000 to 9,000 permanent-seat range (or smaller). In fact, that size is a frequent one for recent arenas built in communities already as big as Sioux Falls is expected to be 40 to 50 years from now. A few such arenas are:

    Huntington Center in Toledo, Ohio; 8,200 permanent seats; 650,000 metropolitan statistical area population.

    Qwest Center in Boise, Idaho; 5,000 permanent seats; 600,000 metropolitan statistical area population.

    Budweiser Events Center in Loveland, Colo.; 5,300 permanent seats; 295,000 metropolitan statistical area population.

    Rabobank Arena in Bakersfield, Calif.; 8,500 permanent seats; 800,000 metropolitan statistical area population.

    Resch Center in Green Bay, Wis.; 8,700 permanent seats; 300,000 metropolitan statistical area population.

    Almost all arenas of the size recommended by the Events Center Task Force are located in metropolitan communities of at least 600,000 people, and most arenas of that size are located in metropolitan statistical area communities of 1 million or more such as Tulsa, Okla., Charlotte, S.C., and Cincinnati, Ohio.

28. About that push poll. My 87 year old mother was involved in that one…to a point. I believe she told me the first question was about the job mayor hubris is doing. She gave him a low mark and hung up. Does that mean her low mark is not counted because she did not complete the push poll?

29. Further proof that Huether and the DT group are communicating. I guess during the first meeting, when Hildy stood up to introduce himself he bragged about getting Huether elected. There is also plans for members to show up to the October 4th council meeting because Mike will be laying out his vision. I betcha the ‘vision’ will include a DT EC. There is also an informal meeting on October 5th at Minerva’s at 5 PM to talk about a DT EC. You’ll bet your sweet ass I will be there.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7385475&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=134067983304306&id=726464127

30. I have been to some green drinks gatherings. They have all to this point been informative and timely with regards to sustainability. It will be real interesting to see how Joe Bartmann and the Sioux Falls Green Project weaves a DT Event Center and a green lifestyle together. Maybe Joe needs to be caught in the DT gridlock after an “event” to get a true measure of how green a DT site would be.

31. Well I suppose the argument could be made that more people will walk to a DT EC because more people live there. Very few people actually live near the Arena site because it is surrounded by a large commercial and industrial zone.

    So in that sense they might actually have something. Also, people would likely walk to resturaunts and bars afterwards instead of driving across town. The only negative would be the gas required for out of town drivers to get downtown versus a location right near an Interstate… but who knows what impact that would be.

    Frankly if they are going to build it, the DT location does make more sense, but I’m with Scott in the sense I don’t think we need the thing – and I’m not sure we will need it for another decade. There are a lot of unanswered questions that nobody seems to be asking.

32. Maybe Joe needs to be caught in the DT gridlock after an “event” to get a true measure of how green a DT site would be.

    For the 2,836,653rd time, there won’t be any of the gridlock you seem to fear.
    Even with the construction nightmare and several lanes and streets blocked off, rush hour downtown is very short and it’s easy to get from my office to my home. Why? I have several options to get home, rather than just one or two.

33. Also, your referencing a letter that is using totally invalid comparisons.

    Take Toledo for example, yes they just built a 8K seat (10K for concerts) Arena, but they also still have Savage Hall which also seats 10K, plus they are an hour away from Detroit, where the competition for big events will go. Same deal on almost every other City this guy cherry picked. Bakersfield is to LA as Sioux Falls is to Sioux City..ie 80 miles away, so that one doesn’t count either. Boise also has a 12K seat Taco Bell Arena, Loveland is 50 miles from Denver.

    We will be trying to compete with Sioux City, Fargo and to an extent, Rapid City. We won’t go bigger than Fargo, so we need to go nicer. We need to be at least as big if not a little bigger than Sioux City, because we won’t be able to build much nicer.

    Again, look at your opportunity and exploit where you can.

34. Poly – I would have to agree with GoD on this one. Doesn’t matter where we build it, there will be traffic backup after the event.

35. l3wis. Tell ya what. After the EC is built DT, park on about the 4th or 5th, or 6th level of the largest ramp in DT Sioux Falls. The 1st Avenue Ramp with 631 spots. Now go see your monster truck show in January with minus 20 weather, walk six blocks to your stall and enjoy your wait to exit into an ALLEY. Enjoy your gridlock….oh and bring a book.

36. No worries. If they build it at the Cherapa site I can walk to shows 🙂

37. Poly, if L3wis has to park on Level 6 at the ramp that’s 6 blocks away than there’s a much bigger issue at hand, and that is who’s taking up the other 5000 spots that are closer and what happened to the additional 1000 that were built at the site that aren’t there today.

    If your doomsday scenario comes true in L3wis’ lifetime, than all that would prove it we built it too small, because apparently you see some 20 to 50% annual gains in monster truck popularity.

    BTW, if that does become true, than the non-plan Mike is pitching is too small as well, so L3wis would have to park in his pal Allen Unruh’s office lot and walk 6 blocks through the frigid winter down Grange avenue’s gridlock as well.

    Only real difference is at least with downtown he could stop in Wiley’s, Holiday Inn or Falls Landing along the way to warm up.

38. l3wis. Tell ya what. After the EC is built DT, park on about the 4th or 5th, or 6th level of the largest ramp in DT Sioux Falls. The 1st Avenue Ramp with 631 spots. Now go see your monster truck show in January with minus 20 weather, walk six blocks to your stall and enjoy your wait to exit into an ALLEY. Enjoy your gridlock….oh and bring a book.

    Tell ya what, Poly, after the EC is built, head to the monster truck show as planned, then head over to Monk’s for a good brew while you wait for traffic to clear. They have a fireplace. Then head home.

39. …who’s taking up the other 5000 spots that are closer…

    Come on Sy. Get serious. I’ll ask you the same thing I ask anyone else who pulls numbers like this out of their ass. Where exactly are these 5,000 ACCESSABLE spots closer than the 1st Avenue ramp? Answer? There are not. Not even close.

40. I guess when said monster truck rally is happening, there won’t be any parking spots taken by those living, working, or eating/drinking downtown.

41. Tell ya what, Poly, after the EC is built, head to the monster truck show as planned, then head over to Monk’s for a good brew while you wait for traffic to clear.

    Monster Truck Show? You gotta be shittin me. Same for the so-called “professional” sports teams we have in town. Same for pro wrestling, same for the summit league, same for most any of the so-called upper end entertainment groups who try to pass themselves off as musicians.

    And Monks? Was there earlier this year with some friends. Asked the waitress to bring a couple of bottles of beer that were popular in the place. Tasted good. Ordered another bottle in fact because I liked it. So three bottles of beer and I get my bill. $54. $18 a beer. Good beer, but WTF. Even old retired guys drawing a pension, with a 401k plan, AND social security gotta raise an eyebrow on that one. Will I ever go back? Prolly

42. I guess when said monster truck rally is happening, there won’t be any parking spots taken by those living, working, or eating/drinking downtown.

    Huh…another memo that failed to get passed around. By mayorial decree anyone working downtown, living downtown, or getting drunk on $18 a bottle beer MUST park south of 14th street, west of Minnesota Avenue, north of Falls park, or east of Weber Avenue on the days of “Events”. Vehicles not abiding by said decree will be towed to the McArena to be lined up side by side and crushed by monster trucks.

43. And anybody needing to get from one side of town to another will be detoured all the way to 26th Street, just as they do for every parade, car show, German line dancing, and Irish Republican Army events.

44. And Monks? Was there earlier this year with some friends. Asked the waitress to bring a couple of bottles of beer that were popular in the place. Tasted good. Ordered another bottle in fact because I liked it. So three bottles of beer and I get my bill. $54. $18 a beer. Good beer, but WTF. Even old retired guys drawing a pension, with a 401k plan, AND social security gotta raise an eyebrow on that one. Will I ever go back? Prolly

    Caveat emptor.
    My favorite beer at Monk’s is about $4.50/ pint. Shoot me an email if you want to join me for one there.

45. Even with the construction nightmare and several lanes and streets blocked off, rush hour downtown is very short and it’s easy to get from my office to my home.

    ~GoD

    I’m guessin’ you walk no further than 40 feet from your parking spot to your business door. I’m also guessin’ if it’s that easy to get home from your business, it is not technically DT. Your business walk and drive is not exactly what Joe SixPack from Podunk SD will face when he leaves a monster truck show.

    And I may be DT tuesday nite, depends on what plans the better half might have in store. Bout time you belly up with that beer you owe me anyway. Same for you Sy.

46. Poly:

    “drive is not exactly what Joe SixPack from Podunk SD will face when he leaves a monster truck show.”

    If JSP is from a farming background I’m sure he has been to Morrells enough times that he isn’t afraid of our downtown area. If he’s been to Sam’s Club on a Saturday to fill up the family truckster with pallets of buttwipe and cheese doodles he’s been in the same level of traffic that he would leaving a downtown EC. If he’s hauled the little rugrats to the Fair to see is bessie took home the Blue Ribbon he’s been in enough bumper to bumper shit that he’s golden.

    Point is, JSP will deal with it just like he does with the rest of life’s little inconveniences. No logical reason to assume he won’t, so why let that guide a massive public/private investment decision?

    and I’ll be glad to buy you a cool one sometime, just don’t know about Tues. yet.

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