While I think we need to make the river greenway downtown ‘nicer’ I do think these plans are a little extravagant. And the placement of the amphitheater seems odd to me. Why would people gather around an office building? Seriously? Wouldn’t Fawick Park be more ideal? What is the purpose of the steps into a muddy river? Are the steps being built to make it easier for public works to drag sewer drainage hoses into the river? Councilor Rolfing brought up the cleanliness of the river today at the informational meeting, and I would agree, do we want to highlight our river at that location? It’s the color of shit. Of course the drawings show the water crystal clear.
The reflection in the water is a nice touch.
Are the steps being built to make it easier for public works to drag sewer drainage hoses into the river?
LMFAO
I personally like the Events Center image next to Cherapa place.
Both Cotter and Kearney have their fingerprints on this document, is this a hint as to what they’d want to see?
I personally like the Events Center image next to Cherapa place.
Is it? I always thought your vision of the DT Events Center was EAST of Cherapa, not NORTH. I’d say that is the Ramkota.
It is such a freaking circus. I had two meetings (one planned, one unplanned) over the past two weeks with some very knowledgable people when it comes to city business. Munson was a rube compared to Huether. He has tentacles everywhere. You would think he is planning world domination instead of an events center. What a goof. I’m still wondering when our local media is going to tell him to take a flyin’ f’ck and start reporting his bologna sandwich press feeding.
Ramkota is going in next to CNA, see below link and click on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th images:
http://perspective-inc.com/Details.aspx?pid=44
Huether is definately the anti-Munson, especially when it comes to a long term vision for what SF could be.
Huether’s act is wearing quite thin with those who have to deal with him. He’s losing support from all corners and it goes directly to how he handles these processes he continuously tells everyone to trust.
I think the Hotel Rendering is no longer realistic, because from what it sounds like they are going to have a taller hotel/condo building along with retail in that building as well. So I’m assuming it will be taller than what is picture in the rendering, but it still looks like a great plan.
But is Looks Cool! That is what matters.
Yeah, even if no one can afford to live there.
Sy.
Are you suggesting a McArena can fit between Cherapa to the south and 6th Street to the north?
It’s called ‘Big Sioux River Greenway’, it’s CONCRETE. Walls make sure homeless drown in the river. Steps are public restroom. Go down, moon toward city hall, squat, push, squeeze, and praise King Huether.
No Poly, Jeff Hazard is suggesting that by showing it as drawn. If you disagree…take it up with him.
That said, it looks like it fits just fine with the east side of the property opened up for parking. It’s not far fetched…just look at Target Field, they fit a 7 acre ballpark on a 5 acre site.
The stairs will work great for baptisms.
Sy. I was just looking at the Evansville site. That center has seating for only 11,000. Seems to me it takes up more space than what’s available north of Cherapa. Other interesting stuff there too. Like the convention center/auditorium is directly across the street. Does it really make sense to locate a EC and convention center so far apart?
Poly – it didn’t “make sense” to put the convention center where it is in the first place, so why compound that with building the EC in a non-sense location TOO?
What Ruf said.
where is the statue of munson going to be? I believe I heard they’re gonna build one of Heuther inside our new events center dressed as a circus leader
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B0CyOAO8y0&feature=related
Got love the composer’s name . . . . BAHAHAHAHA!
Fuck it is right!
And now, a sports update.
In a game that featured 24 lead changes, the Austin Toros did just enough to squeak out a 126-121 victory over the Skyforce, snapping a four-game NBA D-League skid Tuesday before 3,228 fans at the Arena.
The 3,228 fans were disappointed in more than just the play on the court. Most of the 3,228 fans came here by plane, bus, or motorcaded to make an economic impact second to none.
One such fan flew himself and his family here from Austin Texas to follow his favorite basketball team. He lamented.
“It was great the Toros were able to end their 4 game losing skid here on the road in front of such a large and lively crowd. But where do we spend all the cash we brought with us that is burning a hole in our pockets?”
Poly rules!
Sy, ruf, flyer, Argus Endorser. Allow me to save you some time.
But where do we spend all the cash we brought with us that is burning a hole in our pockets?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKCnHWas3HQ
I think you are wrong Poly, it was 3,229 fans. WE NEED TO BUILD A NEW EC TODAY!!!!!!!!!
(facepalm) This from the guy who thinks a night on the town automatically = dropping $300.
Which is it Poly?, do all the Joe Sixpacks spend like you or do they sit at home and wish they could? Is it both? Neither?..or whatever works based on who your arguing against? You are becoming very Huetheresque in your commentary = not a good thing.
I’ll say it again, these types of facilites have a 50 year lifespan. The Arena didn’t consistently sell out until well into it’s second or third decade when the population finally grew into it. Just because it didn’t consistently sell out in it’s inital period, does that mean it was a collosal failure? We spent like $3 million to build the place, now we are spending twice that amount just to keep the friggin’ doors open. Once we outgrow a facility, the bell curve on it’s business cycle goes down, which is where we are today. Other Cities have seen the same problem and they have acted, since we didn’t..we helped pay their facilities off. It’s time to break that cycle.
Sy, you’re forgetting to keep your eyes on the rear-view mirror. How dare you look ahead? There IS no future!!
Well – at least not one worth caring about – ’cause it won’t be yours, just a bunch clueless punk kids. We don’t even know their names yet OR what they’re gonna do for a living, for Gawd’s sake!!
The Arena didn’t consistently sell out until well into it’s second or third decade when the population finally grew into it. Just because it didn’t consistently sell out in it’s inital period, does that mean it was a collosal failure?
Consistently sell out? When in it’s entire lifespan has it ever consistently sold out? And me bein’ huetheristic? Not a chance Sy. You see, I don’t think we need a McArena anywhere in this town, unlike the guy YOU voted for in the runoff election.
Sy, I would imagine in your line of work you must occasionally get your hands dirty and wear a hardhat? Because I have this mental image of you. You know, being a town crier for anything and everything DT and all. As a DT village person, I’m really surprised you have not even mentioned this place yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9OO0S5w2k
That bein said, I do enjoy your spunk…misguided as it might be.
Sy. In the interest of fair play, I take back what I said about you voting for huether in the runoff. Since your guy was soundly trounced in the initial running, I’m guessin you prolly moped around a bit, hung up your hardhat, and stayed home for the runoff.
Yeah, Sy, we have not come anywhere near the time where the Arena consistently sells out anything.
Just out of curiousity, where are the Arena’s in the United States that consistently sell out? How were the attendance numbers in Sioux City or Omaha before they built their new Arenas? From what I know, I don’t think those cities built new Arena’s because of capacity problems, I think they built them for economic impact and wanting to see a jump in sales tax revenue, along with revitalization of parts of their Downtown.
Just out of curiousity, where are the Arena’s in the United States that consistently sell out? How were the attendance numbers in Sioux City or Omaha before they built their new Arenas?
Why don’t you tell us. In eight years of existence, how many sellouts has Sioux City had?
I think they built them for economic impact
Ah…there’s those two touchy feely words put together again. “Economic Impact”. Just another glowing example of figures lie and liars figure. Moving discretionary spending from one area of town to another is not “ECONOMIC IMPACT”.
Outside of the robber barons making their $150 million with their secret contractor deals with the city, what additional economic impact do you get from attendance of 5000 at a new facility compared to 5000 at the old facility? Maybe the city should just pass out that $150 million to everybody in the business community and call it a stimulus package.
“I do enjoy your spunk”
Ah, bad choice of words Poly when you are referencing a YMCA video. I’m just sayin’
“Maybe the city should just pass out that $150 million to everybody in the business community and call it a stimulus package.”
Don’t give Mike anymore ideas that may ‘Confuse’ him.
Poly:
“Moving discretionary spending from one area of town to another is not “ECONOMIC IMPACTâ€.
I don’t think Flyer or anyone else is claiming as such. What he is claiming is that a new EC will bring additional Economic Impact beyond what we have now. It will bring a little more at the Arena, and it will bring quite a bit more downtown.
He bases that theory on what companies like Populous (who’ve been there, done that) have advised places like Des Moines, Omaha, Wichita, Colorado Springs and if your “theory” held any water whatsoever wouldn’t at least one of these places would be in massive economic and political turmoil because their facility doesn’t sell out 3 nights a week?
Also, if companies like Populous were truly selling snake oil like you suggest, how is it we don’t hear of the 100 or so Arenas they have designed in the last decade have failed so miserably and those Cities haven’t been able to figure out what you so have so brilliantly discovered from the comfort of your La-Z-boy?
Let’s try this from another angle, I’ve seen the movie Rambo-First Blood II…you have actually served in Vietnam. Which person do you think has more credibility if we were to get into a debate of what it was really like over there? I mean, we should’ve won easily since a typical soldier can overpower a dozen Vietnamese soliders, kill them with his bare hands, steal a chopper, blow up an entire POW camp without harming any of our guys all while being shot, tortured, stabbed and never running out of ammo, right?
I don’t think Flyer or anyone else is claiming as such. What he is claiming is that a new EC will bring additional Economic Impact beyond what we have now. It will bring a little more at the Arena, and it will bring quite a bit more downtown.
Additional economic impact? Explain. Do you really think that Rascal Flatts would draw more people and money DT versus at the arena? If I’m goin to Rascal Flatts I’m gonna spend X amount of money either DT at the event and Falls Landing, or that same X amount of dollars at the arena and Rookies bar. So again, WHERE’S THE ECONOMIC IMPACT?
Sy.
You and Carter, and Steve, and Brendan, and Jennifer, and all the rest of the “economic impact” village people can replace every casino in town with an EC for all I care. Just leave my parents, my kids, and my grandkids out of your funding formula. I find that highly unlikely though in view of the latest topic here. Just settin us up for what the village people need to reach their goal. My tax dollars, and a regressive one at that.
http://www.southdacola.com/blog/2010/12/seems-the-sf-city-council-still-has-a-hard-on-over-taxing-us-more/
You also keep reminding us of other successful EC sites. I guess that all depends on how you define success. Tyson was funded by gambling dollars, and at a third of your “vision”. And “economic impact” as a mantra? I don’t get it. If 5,000 people go see Carrie Underwood or Rascal Flatts at the arena, or 5,000 at the Sanford Event Center downtown, where’s the net economic impact? And how are we going to compete with other EC sites for big name shows when our overhead is astronomically high relative to Tyson and on the shoulders of those who can least afford to fund the damn thing. Because of cost, location, and cost source this white elephant has all the makings of what happened in Grand Forks. Just google “Alerus losing money” for the latest on that topic.
BTW, The Sioux city Muskies whomped the Herd last night in hockey. Once again, not a peep from the Argus on attendance. Why? Because there were all of 2320 rabid hockey fans doin the wave at our undersized arena. I wonder how many of those 2320 fans caravaned from Sioux City with their Brinks Security truck along for the ride to provide for “economic impact”?
Per the 2005 Task Force report that I’m too lazy to repost again, there is an additional Economic impact calculated above and beyond what we currently get. It included things like additional capacities for shopping, dining and drinking inside the EC as well as new revenue streams from things like skyboxes. Like we’ve also pointed out numerous times, many acts or events have a minimum saleable seat requirement that we can’t currently touch, so we obviously will get at least a shot at those that we don’t now. These are the same kinds of things that have been done in other Cities and have helped their facilites to remain viable.
As for an additional impact downtown, the impact will be about the same. Where they seperate is in the form of new Economic development that will occur in the form of new shopping, dining, drinking and hospitality establishments that will either be built or renovated. Again, this isn’t my theory..it’s happened in all the places I continually highlight.
As for Alerus, it has a couple issues going for it, first it’s a 21K seat venue that’s a few blocks away from the 13K seat Ralph. Both built within a few years of each other and neither one is located in downtown. I suppose the flood might be a good reason for that, but Alerus is a perfect example of why you don’t build next to an interstate and hope a bunch of new stuff autmatically comes in around it. Look it up on Google maps and you can see it’s in a horrible location.
Also, by seperating your Convention and Event Centers, you open up a bunch of dates at each facility that has also forced us to tell people “no” in the past. I know the example of the Ducks Unlimited convention was tossed out by the last Task Force, we had to tell them “no” not because of location or capacity, but because the place was already booked with either Stampede or Skyforce games in the window they wanted. This is a regional convention for the upper Midwest and they loved the idea that we are at the intersection of I-29/I-90 and have a huge hunting economy, but we simply couldn’t fit them in.
One final point and since we seem to be in love with the anecdotal evidence, I’ve been to plenty of Stampede and Skyforce games like the one last night with 2-3K in attendance. The place only seats 4700 for Hockey so when you have 3K the place still looks and feels somewhat full. It also feels full when you go to grab a beer or take a leak, you always are standing in a line and if you go during an intermission it’s a substantial line. Nothing that ruins the night, but it’s a pain nonetheless.
I also went to the newly renovated Memorial Stadium in Lincoln this year for the SDSU game. They spread out the restrooms and the concessions and made use of the space in a way that even in a sellout of 80K+ it was little or no wait each time I went to use the john or grab a Runza. Plus, they had numerous spots to stop and eat with big screens so you didn’t miss the action. Someone made the calcuation that if you add X amount of eating capacity it equates to Y amount of additional spending.
Bottom line? Yer still borrowing from Peter (Rookies Bar) to pay Paul (Falls Landing Bar).
I’ve read the 2005 task force study for an Events Center. Kinda like reading How To Defend A Chicken Coop by Wiley Fox.
I don’t really take anything serious that came out of the Task Force that Munson stocked with cronies in order to obtain a pre-determined outcome.
Someone made the calcuation that if you add X amount of eating capacity it equates to Y amount of additional spending.
Tell that to the owners of the Keg and the other restaurants that went tits up this year.
Scott, the first Task Force was evenly split between the two locations, until they made the comparison trips and crunched the numbers.
They also said that if the tracks can’t be relocated in a timely fashion move on and build at the Arena. If Munson truly controlled them neither of the above would’ve occurred. I know it spoils your warm fuzzy idea that Munson was some evil genius, but that’s the reality of how it went down.
I have spoken with somone who was on the first TF and who currently supports the Mayor’s plan, the last stop they made was at Mid America in Council Bluffs and they were amazed at what little impact the place had and what little there was that had gone in around it. The guy who runs MA told them the place is basically a failure because it’s too close to Qwest and they shouldn’t have ever built the place where they did. That made for an interesting ride home for the TF and it was the point where they all flipped to the downtown site.
They also didn’t conjure up the economic impact numbers, they brought in the consultants and we paid them to consult. Like I always tell Poly, if you have someome with similar credentials who can counter those numbers and back them with analysis, then by all means throw them out. If not, you look as stupid as I did above on my Vietnam analogy.