At the SF city council informational meeting on Monday they talk about the Land Use Committee meeting where councilor Rolfing shuts down The Build it Downtown group from doing a presentation. Rolfing blames it on BID having old information from 2005, even though Rolfing did not know that until after the meeting, and councilor Jamison calls him out on his lie. I hope Rolfing doesn’t get his suit all wet from carrying all that water for the mayor.
(The discussion kinds starts at 46:00 but you can FF to 1:04:00 to see the call out)
So Rex’s position is Build it Downtown wasn’t going to bring anything new from ’05 into the discussion. Since I was handing him the handout that he set aside without looking at it as he was torpedoing the presentation, I wonder how he could possibly know what was in there? No one had a copy prior to this meeting.
Also, what is new from ’05 is Jeff Scherschlight coming to talk about what he envisions as development between the EC and the River. Jeff is willing to forgo approx. $30 million in rental income over his lifetime if the EC goes in and he doesn’t redevelop the whole site. He’s also willing to sell the City the land at $5 a square foot which is what he paid for it nearly a decade ago. I’ve seen parcels sell in the $30+ a square foot range as recently as this last fall. What message does it send non-typical developers like him when instead of laying out his updated vision and offer he’s told to take a flying you know what?
The Mayor has said two things that will turn into big, fat LIES along the way:
1. He said in his inital presentation that “we will trust the experts” when it comes to site selection.
2. He said at the last presentation on the Cherapa site that he’s “not an expert Event Center builder or designer”.
So why is this non-trustworthy, non-expert going to be the one to pick the site?
Quit trying to pretend that Scherschlight is doing the city a favor. He knows full well if an EC is built there, the value of his existing building will increase by 600% overnight. He didn’t get where he is by not making wise business decisions, and he desire to have the EC as a connected neighbor is all business… not philanthropy.
That said I won’t disagree that downtown would be superior to the Arena site give those two options, but this idea that Jeff is such a generous guy is a silly notion.
Also, if we want to discuss lies, what about we talk about who is really funding the BID group. Are we honestly supposed to believe all this time and energy is being devoted out of the goodness of their hearts? Get real.
Costner, show me another time or place where a “developer” has put an offer like this on the table for the City. Sanford offered “free land” but along with that came the City having to foot the bill for all the infrastructure along with it.
The opposite is happening at Cherapa. The land is worth much more now that private development has taken the lead and is also interested in coming in behind the project. The difference is the timeline. The several hundred million $$ in proposed projects within 3 blocks of Cherapa will go in 10 years if the EC goes in, 30 if it doesn’t. The City gets a much better deal out of the former scenario than the hodgepodge that is the Arena area.
Also, perhaps you can enlighten me as to when I or anyone else claimed BID wasn’t a privately funded citizen’s organization? When did we claim otherwise? You seem to be channeling Rex Rolfing’s ability to call someone a liar by telling a lie about them. Are you applying for Litz’s seat so you can carry on the ad homienem attacks of Build it Downtown?
On top of what Costner said, how much is Jeff S. contributing to that pedestrian bridge and amphitheatre that just happens to be next to his property . . .
Yeah, let’s be honest here with what’s going on. He’s selling it for cost, knowing that he’ll make tons more if it ends up there. I’m not saying this is a bad thing, but let’s not make him out to be a saint.
Sy: “Costner, show me another time or place where a “developer†has put an offer like this on the table for the City. “
There are numerous parks that have been placed on donated land, but the city had to provide the swingsets and baseball diamonds. The fairgrounds also sit on land that was donated and is probably now worth more than the land where they want to build the downtown EC.
The Sanford proposal to donate land was also a 100% donation… not asking the city to reimburse them for the original cost. Yes the city would need to toss in some money for infrastructure, but they would need to do so downtown as well in the form of additional parking structures, improved signage and lights for traffic flow, possible expansion of some roadways, and who knows what the final tally will be when it comes to move those railroad tracks (can’t really count on the Feds paying for it 100% at this point when they have their own budget issues to deal with and earmarks are on the chopping block).
Sy: “Also, perhaps you can enlighten me as to when I or anyone else claimed BID wasn’t a privately funded citizen’s organization? “
It has been presented as a grassroots effort by people who just want “what is right” for Sioux Falls. Not much is said about where the real money is coming from. Hildebrand has also acted as if he is doing this all out of the goodness of his heart. Do I think there is some donated time involved? Perhaps, but just look at the BID committe’s own statement. They (you) say you are a “passionate group of citizens who have banded together” as if nobody has any vested interest in pushing the idea, any potential to profit from the location, or any ulterior motives. Give me a break – there are too many big players involved to think this is just a random facebook group with a $300 budget.
We aren’t talking about a friggin’ park Costner, we are talking about the site for the largest investment this City has ever considered. Many of those same parks you reference are part of a larger developments which is also needing City approval to move forward on, so many times there’s your tradeoff. Occasionally you see acts of true benevolence like the Lyon family, but again..how often do those come along?
and again Costner, without your trademark doublespeak, where did myself or anyone else LIE specifically about BID posing as something it isn’t? You called our group liars so back it up or STFU!
and Scott, if the EC doesn’t go in..Schershlight can build out the whole space and there’s your $30 million in rental income. If the EC goes in, he develops about 1/5 of that amount on the River and 6th street sides. He’s pushing for the SMALLER amount of revenue because he’s more into selling insurance and seeing this City not continue to make fucked up choices on their facilites than he is being a landlord. Not saying he’s a saint, but we could use 10 more guys like him in this town for sure.
One last question, do any of you ponder why the Mayor is so hell bent on the Arena site? BID is at least up front about who we are, what we are advocating and why. There’s no formal support for the Arena, so who’s following the money trail out there?
http://siouxfallsbusinessjournal.argusleader.com/article/20110309/BJNEWS03/110308068&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL
If you added up all of the development adjacent to the Arena site since it was built, it would not even equal the short-term investments that the private sector has planned for the Cherapa area. It goes without saying that public investment works best when done “in rhythm” with private investment. It’s simply a more strategic investment of $100M.
All that said, I’m not sure why there is so much vitriol for Jeff Scherschlight on this discussion. Yes, he will benefit if the event center is built next to his land, but he is also offering the land at a tremendous discount versus what the market would dictate.
On a side note, I’m also not sure why the general public seems so opposed to seeing Downtown business owners succeed. Every LTE seems to say something like “why should we locate the EC downtown just so a select group of fat old white guys can get richer?” It’s as though downtown proprietors and investors are not “one of us”, and that DTSF is some sort of necessary evil that we would all rather do without. It is the heart of our city, historically, economically, and culturally, and yet we villify it and those who have invested in it.
Full disclosure: I don’t live downtown, work downtown, own property downtown, or stand to gain personally from a downtown EC being built (except for my quality of life). I’m just an interested citizen who hopes that some form of urban fabric can find its way to Suburbia Falls, SD.
tom,
why is it that the taxpayers of sioux falls need to build an events center so that downtown business owners can make money? if they can’t or aren’t making money without the city building this for them, why are they in business?
The purpose of the events center is not to make money for private businesses. It is a civic structure designed to improve the quality of life of the citizens. If it is built correctly and integrated into a neighborhood with a strong existing fabric of businesses and high redevelopment potential, its success would necessarily engender collateral success in adjoining areas.
Again, it’s called strategic use of community assets. It’s what successful cities do.
Let’s not get into that silly debate again, myself, and many others agree that if we build it, it should be DT. I think the real debate is why hasn’t the public been involved yet? Think about it. BID may have money, or whatever, but they are a private public group. Why does our mayor and his water boys find the need to shut them down. Would it hurt anyone if they made a presentation? Nope. The reason the EC is a turd that will never flush is because we have yet to let the voters speak on funding and need. Until that happens we are just swirling in the toilet bowl.
“We need an events center so that (insert band that will never play here) can come to Sioux Falls.” blah blah blah. “an event center is stupid.” blah blah blah. “it needs to be downtown.” “It needs to stay where it’s at.” “It needs to be nowhere.” blah blah blah economic development blah blah blah insider trading blah blah blah rinse repeat rinse repeat.
Exactly. Scott, we need to start a Facebook group called, ‘Vote on it fucking already!’
The reason the EC is a turd that will never flush is because we have yet to let the voters speak on funding and need. Until that happens we are just swirling in the toilet bowl.
What’s wrong with an honest discussion about a funding source by Honest Mike, by BID, by the Argus? What’s wrong with an honest discussion of WHY…kinda like we had goin in this thread between Sy and Scott Hudson.
http://www.southdacola.com/blog/2011/02/jen-holsen-worked-in-city-government-so-long-she-forgot-the-smell-of-bullshit/
And IF we get thru that dark alley, why not an honest discussion about available parking by Honest Mike, BID, and the Argus?
Don’t see any of that coming down the pike, at least not from the three sources mentioned.
Sy: “We aren’t talking about a friggin’ park Costner, we are talking about the site for the largest investment this City has ever considered.”
Nice attempt at backtracking, but you specifically stated “show me another time or place where a “developer†has put an offer like this on the table for the City” and I listed three primary variants. One is parks where land was donated (not sold for original cost). That includes numerous small parks as well as something as recent as that pond area over by 12th and Ellis Road. Two was the fairgrounds, which as I recall were 100% donation, and three was the Sanford donation – or offer of a donation since the city really isn’t interested in taking it.
As to being the “largest investment this City has ever considered” that is a red herring. The issue of benevolence or philanthropy has nothing to do with the investment that is on the land, but rather the land itself. I’ve already said that the land the fairgrounds sits upon is more valuable than the potential downtown EC site, and that land was donated… not sold for cost.
All of these are true donations, and I don’t see how any of those involved would stand to profit directly from them. Schershlight is much different… sure he can sell the land at cost and claim he is just a simple man giving back to the city, but you’re a fool if you don’t recognize the millions he stands to profit directly from it. If that land was as valuable without the EC, there wouldn’t be all of those large tracts of land available downtown that BID likes to point out for future development. The fact is, right now that land isn’t worth nearly enough to warrant a multi-million dollar investment for a structure that very well could remain empty for years… because there are numerous structures downtown on the market that have been empty for quite some time, so your idea of rental income is dishonest.
Am I saying Jeff is a bad guy? Not in the slightest… he is a good guy and smart businessman. I’m just not buying into this whole “he is just doing what he feels is best for the city” or the silly notion that the only reason he is doing this is he wants to ensure the city makes good decisions. I’m not going to fault the guy for wanting to make a few bucks, but just be honest about it.
Sy: without your trademark doublespeak, where did myself or anyone else LIE specifically about BID posing as something it isn’t?
I’ve already said you are presenting yourselves as just some citizens who want to make the city better. I pulled your own frigging statement from your very own website that claims you are nothing more than a passionate group of citizens. Failing to disclose financial connections is dishonest, and thus yes I consider it a lie to claim you are nothing more than a “passionate group of citizens”. Since there is no financial data disclosed to determine who is actually financing your little passionate group of citizens, we don’t really know for sure, but it is very clear that there are ulterior motives for many if not most of your committee members, and although the impression has been made that Hilde is just doing this from the goodness of his heart, I don’t believe it. If you were honest about the situation you wouldn’t need to dodge the point and you could just answer by saying either no he hasn’t collected a dime, or yes he has and the money came from X and Y.
Tom:I’m not sure why there is so much vitriol for Jeff Scherschlight on this discussion.
Where is the vitriol? Nobody is attacking Jeff here and the only comments made are about this fake image that has been created to make it sound as if he could care less about his balance sheet and is only concerned with doing what is best for the city.
I don’t see anyone saying he is a bad guy or that he is trying to hurt anyone – but to suggest he isn’t looking out for number one is nothing short of dishonest.
Jeff is all about competitiveness, while standing in line for the bathroom at my favorite restaurant, Jeff was hosting a dinner in the private room for his fellow agents next to the john, I listened as he went on and on about killing the competition. I find it hard to believe that this guy is giving up anything.
Again, how is it that BID isn’t being honest? We’ve acknowledged we are a privately funded, citizen’s group. We have cited the ’05 studies and also acknowledged that the current method used by the Architect to count parking at the Cherapa site is more accurate, but also doesn’t take in any additional parking provided by the tracks coming out. We are also conducting our own parking study that we will present to the City as an updated version of the Walker study done in ’05 and we will let those chips fall where they may. We’ve never said there wouldn’t be a need for additional parking downtown, but we’ve also pointed out the same problem exists at the Arena.
Contrast that to the Mayor, the guy started out with a plan that he said wasn’t a plan. He did the end around meeting with the councilors and God knows what deals were cut in which meetings since there was no quorum. He had to be pressed to even release his powerpoint and when he did it was scrubbed. To this day the basic question of “who’s picking the site and how are they arriving at that conclusion?” has been asked both publically and privately several times and we still don’t know that answer. He got “free” design data from a firm vying to design the facility for his non-plan. We had a perfectly good plan to replace the River ramp at the Wells Fargo lot on 8th and that was scrapped in favor of building it between 1st National Bank and River Centre and in doing so you had no explanation as to why along with another open meeting violation by Darin Smith. You have the same Mike Cooper who in ’05 said there’s no parking issues downtown and today saying there is. You have downtown shop owners who’ve been called liars because they heard candidate Huether express support of a downtown facility, now Mayor Huether says he never said that. If it weren’t for BID’s efforts you would have no study being conducted on the economics of each location. You’ve had the Mayor try to manipulate the AL on who’s covering the Events Center story and how they write about it. You’ve had the Mayor lay a veiled threat at Downtown Sioux Falls’ feet under the guise of consolidating them with other organizations. He also told them they aren’t doing their jobs. Economics is the centerpiece of what BID is arguing and if we don’t maximize the potential direct and indirect benefits how is that in any way considered to be the best plan for the City? You have a bigger nut to bust when funding the place if you put it where there’s little to no action, we’ve seen that one play out already. We’ve also paid professional people to tell us just that.
Finally, like I’ve said before. Look at the actions on how BID is being treated in this process. We are being called a “special interest” and the Mayor has said he won’t listen to special interests. We’ve been called “highly charged” and “partisan”, yet the primary spokesman of BID and the Mayor are in the same party. The Mayor himself was in dead last place a year ago until he hired and listened to the exact same person he’s saying shouldn’t be listened to.
Costner, I knew it wasn’t possible for you reply without pulling the same, tired old club out of your bag. You called us liars, I asked you to back that up. You’ve also painted Jeff S. as dishonest about his stated intentions, so you’re calling him a liar too. You don’t see that as vitriol?
BID isn’t using taxpayer money, the Mayor is. That’s the bottom line. You agree that the downtown site is better IF we do this project, but you’d rather attack our group while ignoring the Mayor’s actions? You must be a big fan of MyMan because you guys are two peas in a pod.
BTW, the land the Lyon family donated wasn’t worth squat back when they donated it. It was tough farm ground with too many rocks. At one point the City dump was out there. Like Sanfords donation, years of development had to occur before it reached it’s potential. Neither one had people willing to pay 4-5 times the value for nearby parcels at the time they offered it up. Your comparisons are as bogus = you are a liar so take that as one of your bizarro compliments.
I have to laugh at the fucking Argus – we HAVE to have this building because the existing building has an supposedly antiquated scoreboard. Sure, especially when the games featuring SDSU attracted around 5500, and ALL of the other games were lucky to reach 2500.
Wow Sy, that is a lot of words to avoid the issue of where BID funding comes from. If you want it to remain a secret why not just say so?
And I never called Jeff a liar… I called you on your bullshit by proclaiming he is offering his land as some sort of patiotic gesture. That doesn’t mean Jeff is dishonest… it just means you are naive or ignorant.
Scott – that has been the point of many all along including l3wis and poly. If we can’t even manage to consistently sell out events in our current facility, what justification do we have for a newer supersized version? Oh I forget… we aren’t building it for today, we are building it for 50 years down the road. I guess that is why I don’t buy underwear in the size I need today… I buy underwear that I think will fit me when I’m 80, because as you know the cost of underwear goes up every year so it is better to plan ahead.
instead of building a new events center, buy a new scoreboard instead.
Exactly, Costner – that’s always been my point, too.
Scott: instead of building a new events center, buy a new scoreboard instead.
Daktronics would probably even give us a deal considering they have a facility right here in town. Then again even if we paid full MSRP… that only lets one company reap the benefits so good luck getting any support for that idea.
If the only thing wrong with the arena is the scoreboard, how much would it cost to replace that? I bet it would be considerably less than building an event center.
I found the scoreboard argument, laughable at best. I almost posted something about it.
I think the AL editorial board is either retarded or mentally ill.
Probably both.
The scoreboard is definitely a problem at the Arena, but we all know that is not the only thing wrong with the Arena.
You are right. It’s in a bad neighborhood.
Fun Fact: Before and after every event the Arena staff has to go around and flush every toilet in the building to prevent backups.
Speaking of shit not flowing properly, the issue isn’t who’s funding BID Cos, go back and read the thread title again. BID (who’s basic position you stated you agree with) got jobbed at the City Council level and the guy who jobbed us is lying about why he did it. You want to change the topic to “follow the money” on us, why exactly is that?
There are no bad neighborhoods in Sioux Falls, there are better and worse.
The Arena is terrible. Music sounds terrible there. It’s the worst place I’ve ever seen hockey played, your up way too high to enjoy the game, same goes for basketball. I can’t think of one thing the Arena is good for except for events like the Sportsman Show. Which could be done anywhere that has the same space.
Let’s admit it. The Arena is awful. The hype around the Events Center might be false, but you can’t say the Arena is a good option, and it is not worth putting any money in anymore.
How does flushing toilets before an event – or afterward for that matter – help prevent backups? Even if it did, getting a plumber in there and replacing thes scoreboard would still cost about $99.9M less than a new facility.
People have a lot of complaints about the Arena, but it is typically the same people who said Sioux Falls did the right thing when they built it so many decades ago. Since we know we don’t need additional seating (since even the Summit League tourney can’t come close to selling out, and that is by far the most popular event held here), why can’t we spend a few million to make some improvements at the current Arena site.
Or maybe as l3wis has repeated numerous times, lets just find a funding source and let the people vote on a new EC already. If the public shoots it down, then lets all agree to shut the hell up about it for the next five years. If the public says they want to spend the money, then the next vote should ask the public where the thing should be.
Sy – as far as your comments about Rolfing says he looked through the data and said it was from 2005. I think he needs to clarify when he got the data because when he responded to Jamison he said “you’re absolutely right” but it wasn’t clear if that was in reference to him not getting the data before his motion, or if that was in reference to his “shutdown” was unfair (which he apologized for during the meeting).
Instead of assuming, did anyone bother to ask Rolfing when the first time he saw the BID data? Is it that hard to believe he may have visited the BID site and knew what their major points were already?
If the guy was just going to make an excuse for why he shut them down, why would he focus upon the data being a few years old rather than his primary point about wanting to wait for public input?
Frankly, Enteman had the best point about waiting for public input until we know what the facility will look like, because as he said he are going to get a lot of the same information from the public up until you know what the true goals are. It isn’t like any of the councilors don’t know the position of the BID group – but as Enteman said, once they know what the end product should look like and they have an idea about financing, then he wants public input upon the location.
I find it comical that everyone jumps on Rolfing for shutting BID down, but they don’t talk about Jamison basically bending over and kissing BID’s ass. I guess it all depends upon your perspective, because would Rolfing shut down a group that wants to push the current Arena site or would Jamison be so willing to make a point that they should be heard? I sorta doubt it on both points, but I could be wrong as I don’t know the true motivations of either of these councilors.
Frankly if this little issue has taught us anything it is that Enteman is probably the most level headed. He even made a comment about how it is unfair to question the integrity of the councilmembers and how everyone simply has their own vision. Maybe the rest of them should take a page from his book and just relax a tad.
Enteman? LOL! This is a guy who has used his monopoly motorcycle franchise to bully people in this town. Jim is concerned about one thing; Jim.
I have mixed feelings about the whole situation. Yes, Rolfing handled it like a jerk, but at the same time he does have a bit of a point. There really is no reason, outside of the media whoredom they so thrive on, for BID to make a presentation to the city. EVERYBODY knows their position, and the only thing that could come out of it is more TV coverage…which they have no problems already receiving.
@l3wis… I don’t know the guy personally or professionally, so I’m just speaking about his comments on the topic. However owning a dealership isn’t exactly a monopoly. It isn’t as if he doesn’t have any competition in town… he has just been fortunate to be the franchise owner of an incredibly successful brand and he has built that into what you see today.
Should he be faulted for being good at what he does? Frankly I wish I was in his shoes and had the foresight to invest in something that would explode like that. Maybe part of it was dumb luck (nobody had any idea the 80s and 90s would be so good for Harley) but I’m sure part of it was effort on his part too.
@Scott… well said.
Costner? Is there another HD dealership in town I was unaware of?
Having only one dealership of a particular brand is not a monopoly l3wis. Because first of all a true monopoly would bring down the rath of the Justice Department.
Suggesting J&L is a monopoly is also suggesting Billion automotive is a monopoly because they own Chevy and Dodge (among others) and you can’t buy a new Chevy, or Dodge anywhere in town without buying it from them. It also suggests Tom Walsh holds a monopoly because he owns all of the Burger Kings in town or that anyone who owns a regional franchise holds a monopoly… but that isn’t how it works.
A real monopoly requires full control of a product and manipulation of market conditions. Aside from the fact that you can go 1/4 mile down the road and find another dealership to buy a bike from, and aside from the fact there are several other dealerships in town, there is also the issue with regions. You could drive to another city and buy a Harley just as many people do (Sioux City is the preferred choice, but I have heard of people going to the cities and/or Omaha as well).
So no – what Enteman owns is not a monopoly any way you slice it. It may be inconvenient if you don’t want to do business with him, but we aren’t talking AT&T or Standard Oil here.
I understand that. But guess what, Mickey D’s, Wendy’s and BK all sell the same shitty cheeseburger.
Can I get a Harley somewhere else? Sure. Can I get a special order, brand new Harley in SF anywhere besides J & L? Nope.
Not a monopoly, but pretty fucking close.
Different companies have different types of franchise agreements regarding territories. Subway, for example, doesn’t recognize territorial rights. I could put one almost across the street from an existing one if I so desired. This is why they’re technically the biggest fast food company today. Others, such as the one my family is involved with, doesn’t allow others to come into the area we have the rights for…unless we refuse to put one somewhere the parent company deems worthy.
I’m not a fan of Enteman, but having the Sioux Falls exclusive for Harleys isn’t one of my reasons.
I don’t care either, I just don’t think he should be in city government because of it. Especially after I hear he is trying to get a liquor license so he can open up a restaurant at his old Burnside location, that just happens to be a few blocks from the Arena. Hmmm.
Well this boils down to the appearance of a conflict of interest thing again. I don’t think that means he can’t be in office, but since he owns property by the old Arena it would be better if he would recuse himself from any vote on the EC location.
That said, he doesn’t sound like a guy who really cares where it is located… and least publicly.
Really? Him and Rolfing have been carrying so much water for the mayor I’m surprised they don’t show up to public meetings in wetsuits.
Merely because someone might agree with the mayor or not think now is the time to allow special interests unlimited time to speak on the issue does not mean they are carrying the mayors water.
Have you heard Enteman say anything which suggests he wants the EC to be at the Arena specifically, or as usual as you just making wild assumptions?
Jim certainly doesn’t want it built DT.