The Events Center, Sioux Falls’ version of the abortion debate, never resolved and never ending.
I don’t always agree with Mayor Huether, but this time I think he is right and Jamison couldn’t be more wrong;
Councilor Greg Jamison said bluntly that he thinks it would fail in a special election this year. And he suggested the council might want to have a “cooling off period.”
Do I think it could pass in November 2011? Maybe, maybe not. But like I have told Greg, 1) It is time to let the public decide already 2) A special election will bring out the passionate, informed voters from both sides, for and against, let them battle it out at the polls. When you throw something like a bonding issue in with other candidates you get a butt load of people who are uninformed on the issues. You make the Events Center vote a special election, and you will get a true count of what the citizens want. And maybe that is what the council is afraid of, a final decision. I also think there is another reason Huether wants the election this year, if it fails, it will give him a year to reformulate his plan. Let’s face it, we will be talking about an Events Center until it passes. If you think it will go away if it is voted down in November, you are crazy. Even though Mr. Conflict of Interest would like you to think otherwise;
Entenman, who supports building it at the convention center, participated in Monday’s conversation – at one point joking that he wouldn’t be able to help sell the issue to voters because it “might be a conflict of interest.”
And Entenman said that after 10 years of studying the issue, it might be time to turn it over to voters sooner than later. “If it doesn’t pass, it doesn’t pass,” he said. “The conversation is over with, and that’s it.”
Yeah, we will see.
If BID manages to boot Entenman and this thing passes by one vote, I’ll never support any business or organization that includes any of their members. That’s bullshit political games right out of the Fox News playbook.
Your comment is interesting, because yesterday in the working session, Entenman thot it would be fine if either location is picked by one vote, where Erpenbach felt the council should all be on the same page. The games that are being played are by both sides.
It’s time to end EC suspense. I think it’s a bad idea in this economy. Huether and Entenman will get rich from side deals. If voters say yes, I’ll put my house on the market. I’ll want to enjoy the EC but live in a low property tax suburb so I don’t have to pay for it.
West Ave. & Russell St. area needs serious work. You can’t get construction equipment in and out without access. How can you handle EC plus Arena/Pheasants crowds without major utilities improvement (ie. sewer/water)? An EC at the arena will paralyze present arena area access/revenue. What about losing the softball fields? The city will have no venue or recreation for 3 years while an EC is built. You’ve got 10’s of millions in outside public improvements and lost revenue. Infrastructure that’s in place downtown.
I know stupid Ellis believes it’s a great political move, but I think lots of people believe as I do – if Entenman’s property was downtown BID would celebrate him. Transforming themselves from “normal” citizens pushing for their favorite location into a political machine that doesn’t care who they roll over is not going to work out well for them.
I would agree with that.
Scott- what’s your point. This is politics. I like the Arena site but I think Entenmen has a conflict. That’s why there are 8 on the Board. And a strong Mayor.
I’ll never support any business or organization that includes any of their members.
By the way that’s Bull Shit politics are well- threats how sophmoric! I bet you don’t shop Downtown now. See ya at Walmart!
Whatever John. You’ve never seen me at Wal-Mart, as I’ve been in there 3 times in my life.
John – Simmer down now. I don’t think comments on SD’s most sophomoric political website constitute a threat.
Scott,
Entenman brought this on himself, plain and simple. I seriously doubt Hilde would’ve even brought the complaint if it weren’t for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4PVLOxeVTk
You might also recall that it was the likes of the Mayor, Stu Whitney and Greg Belfrage who politicized this process early on by attacking BID and all of whom have called on them to back down and support a flawed plan. A plan that will shortchange this City for 50 years if it’s actually implemented.
For fux sake, the Mayor himself is making the decision based on politics as the Arena is the only site he thinks will pass a vote, he wouldn’t support downtown unless he saw a 60% poll, nevermind he is doing everything he can to kneecap the only people working toward that level of support.
I thought you were a little more astute politically, but apparently like the Mayor you let your personal dislike of the messenger cloud what business acumen you might claim to have.
Oh Sy. Once again, because I don’t agree with your OPINION I’m not “astute” or have “business acumen”. Everybody should just bend over and let BID do what they want because clearly they’re the smartest folks in this city!
Sy – I am assuming this comment is directed at Scott H. and not me. I don’t have business acumen, luckily I was vaccinated for it as a child.
Okay, I am going to take a shot at this.
Scott is right on many levels about BID, and I think he is talking about the political games that are being played. There is no doubt in my mind if the citizens decide we need this fucking thing (which we don’t) it should be built DT. I just think that too much time has been wasted on the color of the seats and location while no one wants to talk about how Joe-Six-Pack is going to pay for it. You could build the damn thing next to the prison for all I care, but we are missing the point. We have a mayor who has his ideas, we have a council who has theirs and we have a public who has been left out of the process for 10 years (which I will have to give credit to BID for lifting that veil a bit). Like I said in the original post. If voters shoot this down in the first ballot question, it will just keep reappearing until it is approved, it’s our abortion issue.
Sy.
I’m no Entenman fan, but you guys (BID) are perhaps being just a bit ruthless in your attacks on the guy. Do you remember saying this Sy?
“You also don’t give a rip that we have one sitting Councilor waiting to pop open a big sports bar or something in his building a block away from the site”
A block away from the site? Come on. That in and of iteself is a real stretch. That building is west of the Sport Bowl, certainly NOT within a block of the EC. And that thing about a sports bar? That building? Where, besides a rumor started by BID, did that one come from?
I’m with Scott H on many levels of this EC discusion. I’ve also lost a LOT of any respect I may have had for Hilde, and in the process feel Big Jim has been wronged.
So what’s BID’s plan on how to rid the city council of other Arena backers? Hookers with hidden cameras? Hacks into their medical records? Planted kiddie porn?
Jamison sounds like someone who would be a poor mayor. He is acting like someone who wants to be liked and take the nice adult in the room attitude.
jamison may be a nice guy, but i’m afraid if elected mayor, he will be a junior munson.
Didn’t Jamison promise us his “plan”? Where is it Greg?
13wis, you can be reasonable about this but I just can’t agree with Scott (whoever) or Poly 43. I really believe there is so much animosity now that it doesn’t matter what location is decided on because it’s going down big time. I am in favor of an EC but I will not cry when this goes down because I am sick of it. And, Entenman…he cries too long and hard to feel sorry for him. His behavior has been puzzling and now he jokes about it and thinks it’s funny? This whole process is the mayor’s fault but he will never take responsibility when this goes down and the easy target is going to be BID and Hildebrand. Sad!!
I think one of my political friends in the know said it best the other day, the councilors are acting like a bunch of ‘chickenshits’ on this issue. And they are, none of them want to take a real stance. Sad really.
There is no doubt in my mind if the citizens decide we need this fucking thing (which we don’t) it should be built DT. I just think that too much time has been wasted on the color of the seats and location while no one wants to talk about how Joe-Six-Pack is going to pay for it. You could build the damn thing next to the prison for all I care, but we are missing the point.
~l3wis
T-h-a-n-k Y-o-u l-3-w-i-s
Short, to the point, and what Joe wants to know.
Sy – Just curious? How does BID suggest we pay for the facility? Do you agree with Huether on bonding? Does BID have a funding idea?
@ Scott, didn’t you just call Ellis stupid and have also bashed the entire SF Media simply because they are reporting on Build it Downtown’s efforts? Should the media only report on things you agree with, would that make you a happy camper?
and perhaps you’ll note that the language of Hildebrand’s complaint is that ANY councilor with any financial ties to EITHER site should recuse, and that’s following a simple precedent that goes back a long ways and is there for a damn good reason. If Jamison turns out to be a secret partner in Cherapa place or Raven’s redevelopment guess what?: He should back away too.
@ Poly, I posted that back when Entenman was still on the liquor license list and prior to his comments in the video above. He has since forfeited that license, but before he did he was pretty mum about what he wanted to do with it. He admitted the franchise that he was pursuing backed away, yet he didn’t take himself off the list then. You love to connect dots, so what do you think a guy with a full liquor license and a barely used 20K sf building would do if a $100 million project goes in two blocks away?
And as for the distance, the original McCart plan would’ve put the edge of the EC parking lot about 300 ft away from his old J&L building OR the storage units & shop they own across the street. They are trying to figure out plan B and one thing I’ve heard is they may try to buy the Moose Lodge and reconfigure McCart using their space so they don’t lose as many diamonds. Still a plan in flux, but either way it’s pretty clear that the Entenman’s will benefit and it’s alsoe clear we have no clue what final parking numbers will cost at the Arena.
I carp on Ellis and the rest of the media when they’re silly about it – like Ellis’ repeated mantra that the Arena shouldn’t be considered because there isn’t a Facebook group. No, I don’t look for nothing but anti-EC stories to be printed. However, they shouldn’t just be cheerleaders. Hawkins shouldn’t be comparing it to the resurrection of Jesus. All of them should still be talking about whether there is even a need for it, instead of acting giddy. My BID complaint is twofold – the expectation that everything they say deserves a front page story, and this ethics debacle. I said from the beginning that I’m not a fan of Entenman, but this rush to eliminate a vote to ensure your side wins is beneath the fine members of that group. I’ll give you credit for saying that Jamison should also step down if he indeed owns property in the general area, but I don’t hear others rushing to their favorite cheerleaders in the media with that same sentiment.
Scott points out one of the biggest problems with the EC debate, our local media. Jesus Christ, how pathetic are they? They change sides every day without really reporting the facts. I had a casual convo with two business owners today about the topic and they had no clue about what was going on. And they watch our local stations, read the paper. It is kinda like the paper and the tv stations covering the school board elections today, that wasn’t happen-stance. Stehly has been riding their asses for a week about the new voting procedures, and it has paid off, they covered it, but it is sad that a regular citizen had to tell the NEWS what NEWS is.
Right on about the media, l3wis! A bigger gang of hacks couldn’t be found outside of the state GOP HQ.
For the record, I favor a downtown site – it makes more sense economically(no matter what the mayor’s spin study may say), it would tie in with Falls Park in a touristy-type way and, most importantly, because I live just a few short blocks from DT. But, it’s nice to have a place to express opines and vent a little…thanks, l3wis!
…it’s pretty clear that the Entenman’s will benefit and it’s also clear we have no clue what final parking numbers will cost at the Arena.
~Sy
You can’t have it both ways. One day hilde suggests West Sioux will realize no economic developement with or without an EC, and the next day he accuses Big Jim of profiteering from the land he owns 2000 feet away from the EC’s doors. Which is it?
I believe Big Jim told us what he had intended for his liqour license application. He said he would have built a beer joint out by his biker shop. Based on his “drink and go” beer tent sales on his parking lot every other weekend, a liquor license out there makes perfect sense. Jim bowed out of that liquor license deal in the face of “speculation” by the likes of the political operative that heads BID. Robert Correa said it best in a letter to the editor today.
This process has gotten all too ugly, thanks to a few.
@Poly – you have been a persistently negative voice in the process for several years. Negativity isn’t exactly beautiful.
I know Bob, and if I were to put just a wild guess out there he is probably very good friends with Jim.
@Poly – you have been a persistently negative
And why not? BID and the good mayor have been persistant in their efforts to keep the cart in front of the horse. But oh yeah, that’s OK. Just good business sense. Neither side wants to address the true costs after street upgrades and parking are factored in. Just good business sense. And last but not least, you guys don’t want to talk about who’s going to pay for it. Again, good business sense.
You might consider dancing around the issues good business acumen. Joe SixPack does not.
To be clear Poly, BID has never said there will be “no development” after an EC goes in by the Arena.
In fact, they don’t really dispute the $6.7 million in spinoff development AECOM plugged in as they highlight the $51 million that’s in the same study for downtown. It’s also worth noting that when the guy from AECOM (Lance) who was in charge of the development component of the report was asked point blank at the Q&A if in his research & interview process if he identified ANYONE who’s stated they would be willing to invest in the Arena area, he answered “No, no one has come forward”. Conversely, the $500 million number he included in his section came directly from discussions he had with several local developers.
What BID’s point is that it isn’t worth it to build a $100 million addition to the Arena & Convention Center for such a small amount of payback or for luring in a Pheasants forever convention that we have neither the Airline nor Hotel capacity to handle.
@ Poly, again BID is arguing that the site is what makes or breaks the payback to the taxpayer. If the EC goes in at the Arena, there will not be a single City official who can look Mr & Mrs JSP voter in the eye and say:
“We tried everything within our power to but the best Return on Investment for this $100 million we want to borrow in front of you to vote on”
What they can say, but won’t be this honest is:
“This is the quickest, easiest plan that we think you are able to figure out, since we aren’t changing the location. This time we think it will work”
Sy has a point;
“This is the quickest, easiest plan that we think you are able to figure out, since we aren’t changing the location. This time we think it will workâ€
I’m glad that Hildy is fighting tooth and nail to get this project built DT, gawd knows I don’t have it in me.
@ Lewis. I personally think we can bond $100 million or thereabouts and be just fine. However, like I said in the past, I think our B&B taxes should’ve been raised and pledged to pay down that debt and/or fund the operations.
We went ahead and raised them, but thanks to Councilor “I don’t care” now those funds are going into a marketing fund to polish the turd that is our Arena & Convention Center. As we all know, a good marketing campaign is all that area needs to flourish.
1) It is time to let the public decide already 2) A special election will bring out the passionate, informed voters from both sides, for and against, let them battle it out at the polls. When you throw something like a bonding issue in with other candidates you get a butt load of people who are uninformed on the issues. You make the Events Center vote a special election, and you will get a true count of what the citizens want.
~l3wis
If the vote on ‘where’ is tied to a national election in ’12, then ‘honest mike’ crowd will prolly get their needed numbers. That would be about 60,000 votes cast, most by voters who just are not informed enough to make an educated decision. A special election on ‘where’ would be a close call between the two dueling tribes. A special election means maybe 30,000 voters. If those 30,000 that show up are given the option of whether we even want one…sorry, but the BIN group will win. (Build It Nowhere)
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30,000? Ha. Kinda like the school board election yesterday that drew 4,100? I can’t remember how many people voted on the indoor pool, but I believe it was about 12 or 16,000. That is all I would expect for an EC. There is already talk of an opposition group, and they will have a strong campaign, I will not be a part of it though.
30,000 is about what we had for the last mayoral election. I know that number is a little high, but given the high publicity this white elepant is getting, I’d say closer to 30k than 16k. The lower the total number of voters the higher possibility it gets turned down, or it goes DT. The higher the total votes, the higher the probability it gets built at the Arena site. Not a good scenario for hildy.
You need to watch this video;
http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail6162.cfm?Id=115762
I emailed Greg about the meeting, he told me he got the feeling that a lot of people are still undecided. But he also confirmed to me most people at the meeting were over 55 years old.
Although I have retired from a J-O-B, that does not mean I’ve retired from life. I manage to spend about 20 hours a week with senior citizens. Trust me…I do NOT have to say anything one way or another to know EXACTLY where seniors stand on this issue. They are engaged and know more than people give them credit for. AND they vote. Not so with the Stogeez crowd. Social Security eligible registered voters in this town prolly stands at around 20,000 give or take. They’ll be a hard nut for the good mayor or hildy to crack. Jamison FINALLY gets it.
It’s not just the seniors. Move away from the pseudo hipsters downtown and you’ll find a good percentage of people who believe it’s one group of rich pricks fighting with another group over who will most profit off the taxpayers backs.
I wrote a letter to the editor about that exact point Scott, I’m waiting for my rejection letter before posting it on my site.
Unfortunately, BID isn’t a group of rich pricks looking to line their own pockets. But thanks for helping the Mayor and co. keep that misguided notion at the top of everyone’s mind.
BID is arguing for only doing this project if we can maximize the total ROI. A position that will directly benefit all those Seniors and Averages Joes, even if they never set foot in the place. Make the pie bigger, and less pressure to raise taxes elsewhere. This isn’t some wild-ass theory, this is what’s taking place in many Cities both bigger and smaller across the country that have gone through this same process.
It’s funny, Sy, that earlier you complain that I apparently demand nothing but articles that fit my opinion (which is not true) yet you don’t want to accept that anybody may have valid reasons for either not wanting it at all or wanting it at the Arena. And you seem to take it personally when criticisms are made against the project or BID. I don’t agree with you, but I don’t think less of you (or others of your ilk) as a person for believing in this…and I guess I sort of expect the same.
Scott, you of all people should know that all of us rich pricks think that way.
There certainly are valid reasons for not doing the project at this time, I just think there are more valid reasons to do it. However, there is no valid reason to build at the Arena site if we do. If there was, the Mayor wouldn’t have had to cook his report and you wouldn’t have a City Council that’s so divided.
Don’t take my word on it, here’s what some other rich pricks who’ve been down this road say:
“I don’t see cities say ‘We made a mistake. We built it downtown.’†– Stan Meredith, principal for DLR Group of Omaha
“It’s a wonderful facility, But we always lament it’s not downtown. We don’t get the ancillary benefits of people wandering into stores or going out to eat.†– Ron Butlin, Downtown Partnership of Colorado Springs
“We looked at the experience of other communities that had built them on the edge and are now considering moving to the downtown area. We felt there was a fair amount of evidence not to put it on the edge,†– Dan Marvin, West Haymarket Arena project manager
“The facilities that have been built to date on the outskirts of a community do not pay for themselves. That brought about the conclusion very quickly that it needs to be down in the core of the city where the tax revenue will help pay it off,†– Dick Campbell, Chairman Lincoln Events Center Task Force
“The best cities across America understand that your downtown brands your community, for better or for worse. Cities with revitalized downtowns have a better chance of recruiting new busineszx and attracting new jobs — thereby expanding the property tax base and generating more sales tax. – Mayor Carl Brewer, Wichita, KS
“The big problem with suburban locations is generally, the parking is a sea of parking around the arena. You drive there, get out of your car, see what you came to see, get in your car and leave.†– David Taylor of Arco Arena
Yeah, I guess we can’t have a rational discussion on this issue.
I spoke to someone who attended the EC meeting last night that Councilor Jamison was putting on. One of the first questions Greg asked was, “How many of you think we need an EC?” Only half raised their hands (out of about 50 people). One of the other things that came out of the meeting was that most want to vote on it NOW.
48 comments and nothing that rises to your level of “rational”, Scott?
I’ve agreed with some of your points in the past, but the ones I disagree on don’t make me think you’re any less rational than the next guy and I guess I sort of expect the same.
L3wis, as we’ve discussed before, I don’t really think we “need” and Events Center either just like I don’t “need” a 401K. At this point, I’m damn glad I have one and I’m even more glad I started when I did back in the mid-90’s.
That being said, Sioux Falls can handle investing in a new EC, but only if they treat it like their 401K and maximize the return. The Arena is like holding cash in your 401K, sure it’s safe. But if it isn’t growing at least at the same rate as inflation you are actually going backwards.
Sy – So we should just build it ‘Because’ ?
That isn’t rational at all. SF continues to grow w/o an EC. Is that by chance? Not at all. SF is a great place to live. Would an EC make it better? Sure. But Hudson’s analogy from one of his friends is best, “Do you add on a guest room to your house for an Uncle who visits every two years?”
We need to learn what makes SF great, and learn to appreciate it. If the private sector wants to make an EC happen, GFI! Otherwise, leave taxpayers out of it.
I appreciate the passion, but for fucks sake, we don’t need the place, why burden taxpayers with something we don’t need? Keep it up, and I may join the opposition group.
48 posts and we just go back to the same wash, rinse, and repeat. Repeating the same points isn’t a rational discussion. We both know where the other stands and I’m just going to wait to vote no.
I’ll give Sy credit, he has proved two things, that we need to build it DT and that it will have more of an economic impact there. But none of the Pro-EC groups have shown ‘the need’ factor.