According to this Argus article, it would appear the Homebuilders Association knows more about fire safe materials then actual fire fighters. And why wouldn’t the council listen to them? Our fire department was practically dead silent about amending the provision.
Why didn’t Fire Chief Sideras come and speak about the importance of this issue? A Brandon firefighter died because of this exact problem. I can’t even fathom a fire department being absent from a discussion as important as this.
 “Ron Bell said last month the added layer of drywall would add between five and 10 minutes of structural life to floor trusses in the event of a fire.â€
Not quite!
A 1/2†layer of ordinary sheetrock can add up to 30 minutes of additional protection to a floor truss delaying structural collapse. Ron isn’t a fire expert but a fire fighter like the chief or the fire marshal (Dean Lanier) could have easily provided that information.
Either one of them could also have reminded the council that many cities do not opt out sections of the International Fire Code when it is updated, they adopt it as is. (I.E., they don’t let the Homebuilder’s Associations run the show with scare tactics like “people won’t be able to afford houses anymore or it will add $3,000 on to the cost of a house (Notice they didn’t mention the square footage of that house).
“Putting that cap up, there is still going to be areas that will be exposed to those trusses and the airflow will go up in there,†said Council Chairman Kenny Anderson Jr. “I just don’t feel there’s enough data to show … that this will be effective.â€
Airflow isn’t the problem, it’s when the flame gets to the metal gusset plate on the floor truss itself. Example: Take a hot pan on the stove on high heat. Put your hand above the pan 2†away. You can feel the heat, but you aren’t being burned. That’s airflow. Put your hand on the pan. You’re being burned, eventually to the third degree. (bet you wish you had that piece of drywall about now) See the difference?
Drywall will delay that for up to 30 minutes.
More Evidence;
The fire department, Sideras, and the union have the data to show floor trusses are extremely dangerous under direct flame contact – that is why the fire code was changed to cover the trusses. They will fail within 5-10 minutes of direct flame contact. In some cases that’s before the fire department is even on scene. Changes to the fire code aren’t made lightly, they’re just as political and fought against at the national and international levels.
So did Sideras put his career ahead of the life safety of the 200+ firefighters under his “protection�
“Citing cost concerns and a lack of effectiveness, councilors rejected the proposal Tuesday.â€
They made the only decision they could come to considering they only had half of the facts – the ones provided by the homebuilder’s association and the incorrect ones provided by the building services director. Where was Sideras and what are we paying this fire chief for? But it also proves that our city council does very little research of their own relying solely on the shills that run the different departments.
(Note: A former firefighter/inspector contributed to this post)
I applaud the council for this decision. It’s bullshit science and using it as an example in a firefighters death is reckless. Smoke alarms save lives not sheetrock.
As to the fire in Brandon. The firefighter was drunk. …..Really drunk and the homeowner ignored the problems with the furnace, ingested a dose of sleeping pills and could not be waken by his daughter. Why did the daughter survive?
No offense to the family of those who died in that fire, but its your warped bullshit thats dragging them into this.
Your a consistent counter diction to your own self. You don’t want to be told by the city what to do, but you chastise them when they don’t adopt new laws to tell you what to do.
I will agree, not a fan of unneeded regulations, and will also agree, smoke detectors do more to save lives then sheetrock, fire walls/doors, sprinklers, etc. combined. The city is in the middle of a gigantic task of visiting neighborhoods and giving out free detectors, I applauded the FD for this task at a recent meeting.
My point is why wasn’t the council give the FACTS about the floor from the FD before voting on this from half-ass testimony from the Homebuilders and the Building Department? They at least deserved testimony from both sides before making a decision, but once again they were sold a false bill of goods.
does this stop the homeowner from putting up the sheetrock- it is an unfinished basement and should someone want that protection they can put it it
The city staff gives their points on issues to the city council via private emails as if the information used to make their decisions are top secret. Unless these emails are dealing with personnel or litigation issues they should be completely open to the public for inspection.
This is another example of closed government where they do not have to follow any established process except secrecy to make the decisions.
Bullshit science? LJL, You obviously have no idea what the organizations like the NFPA do to test construction assemblies.
Granted the “probable” burn through times are lab created, so even they admit they will vary in real world conditions, but if sheetrock covering trusses doesn’t work, then why are they required for commercial structures?
Answer: Because it works, it’s not bullshit science, it’s proven in recreatable laboratory settings with consistent results. That’s legitimate science.
So LJL, what you are referring to is a bullshit opinion. One that is expressed without knowing any facts backed only by an emotional response.
We’ll never know for sure if a sheetrock layer covering the floor trusses would have saved that firefighter’s life. What we do know is that open floor trusses, exposed to fire will fail structurally within 10 to 15 minutes. The sheetrock layer can add up to 30 minutes before that failure occurs. Drunk or not, that added layer could have saved that fire fighter’s life.
I don’t like the City making too many rules either but that doesn’t apply when it comes to life safety. I don’t like big money coming in and using bad data to put their profit margins first.
I have the same question, where was the fire department on this one? No one was there to speak?
No surprise the fire chief didn’t show up and speak. Typical of a Huether appointee. Speak up and lose your job.
The mayor supports big business and the HBA didn’t want this added to the code.
Hope no fire fighter in Sioux Falls gets hurt, and I hope the chief’s $133,000+ salary lets him sleep at night if one does.
I worked on the department and a guy I worked with summed up Sideras better then anyone else has so far:
“He’s the smartest most useless guy I know.”
I bet he didn’t want to speak to the commissioners because he was afraid they would ask him questions. I doubt he knows the burn rate of drywall or trusses.
He’s been on the department over 30 years and hasn’t seen the inside of a burning house for over the last 20 years.
I’ve lost any faith in mayors being able to pick fire chiefs in this city since Ricky Larsen. They had to bring Donn Hill out of retirement to fix his all of his screw ups. Are they going to bring Donn out of retirement again?
An interesting side to this “discussion” and vote was both fire marshal and fire chief were in the room for a reason we did not know…
science? we don’t need no stinking science! this is south dakota, we have God and guns to protect us!
Bruce – Under this Mayor, I can tell you, no directors are emailing the city councilors with unsolicited information unless the Mayor okays it first or without the Mayor’s permission. If a councilor requests information, the Mayor approves a copy of the response first before it is sent back.
There is a ridiculous amount of control of information the council has no idea that is going on being orchestrated by the Mayor.
As far as the fire chief and fire marshal being at the meeting, in my mind that makes it worse. Listening to the incorrect information and sitting there passively doing nothing to correct it. Inexcusable.
The reason for the bullshit science is due to the fact of low occupancy vs firefighter safety. You can find plenty of examples of firefighters be hurt or killed by falling sheetrock… Statically, 18 minutes after ignition your chances of survival diminishes rapidly.
AND
How many homes are left unfinished? The number of homes where the basements are unfinished is quite low. So most of that sheetrock gets pulled down to finish. Why not a fire rated coating? Easy to install, has no risk of hurting a fireman and can’t be uninstalled.
It does make sense in commercial environments due to the fact of increased occupancy and structural loading. Not to mention that when a commercial building is built, its’ done. It’s rare that a commercial building has a portion completely unfinished but used and intended to finish later like a home basement.
Your logic about this being a conspiracy of the HBA is moronic. Everything a contractor installs in a house has profit in it. You force them to sheetrock a basement, more profit. Why not demand sprinkler systems? Because you squeeze more people out of affordable houses when you add more shit. Adding sheetrock to a unfinished level, just to save a hypothetical life does more harm than good.
Let me rephrase: BULLSHIT STATISTICAL SCIENCE. Yes, adding a layer like sheetrock will increase fire rating, but the entire house is just silly. I would support adding fire rated layer for areas of likely ignition like furnace, electrical and laundry rooms. These areas are most likely to cause fires but are rarely finished enough to help prevent structural fires. STATISTICALLY speaking smoke alarms save lives not extra sheetrock. Thats a FACT not opinion.
Just consider the bullshit city law about not being able to install your own backflow preventer that was created a few years ago. You had plumbers lined up to give “professional opinion” during that city reading. How many lives has that rule saved or will save, NONE.
BTW…Since when did firemen become structural engineers? I was unaware they were required to get that degree.
I realize what I just posted was way too much for some of you read so I’ll make it simple.
Damn near all fire related deaths are the result of smoke not fire. So unless you make smokeless construction material and furnishings, 30 minutes extra of smoke ain’t gunna save you.
Does that help you Scott?
#10-this is what so many of us know. The public knows many who work for the city and we hear the same thing.
While schmoozing with the public at public events, he is dictatorial, controlling and manipulative in getting his “list” completed before he leaves office. City employees, councilors, workers be damned. Not to mention the general public’s opinion nor with regard to their tax dollars!
LJL – Fire fighters aren’t killed by falling sheetrock, injured yes, killed? no. They’re killed by the structural members they’re attached to and other heavier debris. (According to the US Fire Administration data since 2000.)
Do you know how you’re winning an online debate? when the other person starts typing in all caps, and using words like bullshit and moronic to defend their position. If you ignore all of the displaced anger, you actually made a couple of good points.
A fire rated coating is an excellent idea. Why didn’t the fire chief present that idea?
Residential sprinklers are in the International fire code. That’s yet another thing the HBA lobbied against and the City opted out of the local fire code. In the cities that did adopt it, somehow people are still managing to afford houses.
Smoke alarms do save more resident lives. What apparently wasn’t made clear, and the point you missed is, the code change was supposed to be making firefighting safer for fire fighters also.
After reading your post, I agree, a fire rated coating is a better solution – assuming it provides the same time amount of protection or greater, and probably only need be applied as you suggested in the utility rooms, laundry rooms, etc.
Another option might be to apply the coating to only cover the gusset plates of the trusses since this is the problem area that causes the failure, and to help with builder’s costs.
I never said fire fighters had engineering degrees. But the people who do the testing for the NFPA do, and the fire departments have access to that information.
It still comes back to my original question. If two citizens are coming up with these answers, why were the fire chief and fire marshal silent and not providing any data or alternatives?
I buy the smoke inhalation defense but worry why the city excepts building standards. After Ron Bell signed the events center occupancy permit, I question his qualifications and professionalism. How many irregularities are there for other construction? Will federally sponsored condos downtown cave or burn sooner? Do developers not only get unsubstantiated TIF’s but also approved inferior construction shortcuts?